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To: GunRunner
“Well, that's a HUGE angle;”

For them (For over 1300 years) but what religion is the other side promoting? The fact that Western civilization has tolerated as well as wanting to work with Muslim states is continually met with resistance. Their fault not ours.

“But you've still got the Troubles in Northern Ireland”

Wow, I thought it was about the Irish wanting to be self-autonomous in N. Ireland. Of course you have the Catholic/Protty element but the core is not religious.

“the Crimean War”

Great Britain was a Catholic bastion and an ally of not only France but the Vatican at the time? Wow! Was basically a mixture of religious as well as acquiring/preventing of strategic land masses (By Russia).

“Christian violence died down after the 30 Years War as the West became more secular.”

ROTFL

Wars between countries over religion died down but Europe after 1648 was hardly secular. Nation States absorbed religious pluralism, tolerance grew somewhat and the Enlightenment “freed” the individual but people still worshiped along with “the State” well into the 18th century in several countries.

“Do you think religion has helped Europe become a more peaceful continent in the late 20th century?”

No, forward-deployed weapons that could annihilate cities with one shot is what keeps “the peace” and prevents serious hot wars from occurring. Lack of faith in God will lead to decay from within and history will repeat itself again with...

“Ho Chi Minh, Kim Il-Sung, Mao, Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler did not murder millions in the name of Epicurus, Spinoza, Jefferson, Robert Ingersoll, or Einstein.”

They just filled the void from a population which turned their backs on God. Same like today, some central authority will “stimulate” the reprobates.

40 posted on 03/18/2009 12:20:25 PM PDT by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: rollo tomasi
Wow, I thought it was about the Irish wanting to be self-autonomous in N. Ireland. Of course you have the Catholic/Protty element but the core is not religious.

The Catholic Protestant facet of the Troubles is not an 'element', but a root cause; THE cause in fact that led to every other element of the conflict.

Without Catholics fighting Protestants, and vice versa, there is no conflict.

Great Britain was a Catholic bastion and an ally of not only France but the Vatican at the time? Wow! Was basically a mixture of religious as well as acquiring/preventing of strategic land masses (By Russia).

It was a war for control and sovereignty over the Holy Land; a religious war between Eastern Orthodox and the Western Christian powers.

Wars between countries over religion died down but Europe after 1648 was hardly secular.

They became more secular. I didn't imply an instant shift, but a gradual secularization between then and the late 20th century. It's undeniable.

No, forward-deployed weapons that could annihilate cities with one shot is what keeps “the peace” and prevents serious hot wars from occurring

I'll take the 'No' as an agreement.

They just filled the void from a population which turned their backs on God.

Sure, and it was an easy transition; it's very simple to morph religious authoritarianism to secular authoritarianism. It's still authoritarianism.

Find a society based on the ideals of those in that latter half of the sentence, and tell me which one has slouched into poverty, repression, and dictatorship.

Don't look long because you won't find one.

41 posted on 03/18/2009 1:58:49 PM PDT by GunRunner
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