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To: TaraP
All Jews have very similar DNA (regardless of denomination - Orthodox, Reform etc.), except those who've intermarried in recent generations.

The Native Americans aren't "lost tribes" of Israel. Genetically, they are east Asian. They have nothing in common with any peoples from the Middle East, including Jews. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.

In fact, there are no "lost tribes" of Israel. Assyrian records indicate that only 27,000 people were exiled. Most of the population was not exiled and assimilated into Judah when Judah reconquered the land of the Northern Kingdom during the reign of Josiah. Many of the rest became the Samaritans. Most Samaritans were killed over the succeeding centuries by the Jews, Romans, Byzantines and Arabs. Most of the remainder assimilated, and are one of bases for today's Palestinian population. A small number (about 600) still exist.

The 27,000 exiles from the Northern Kingdom form the basis for the Jewish communities in northern Iran, Kurdistan and Bukhara (central Asia), all of whom have traditions of being from so-called "lost tribes." Some of the rest intermingled with the Babylonian diaspora, and others just assimilated.

24 posted on 02/15/2009 12:29:13 PM PST by ChicagoHebrew (Hell exists, it is real. It's a quiet green meadow populated entirely by Arab goat herders.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew

You said:
All Jews have very similar DNA (regardless of denomination - Orthodox, Reform etc.), except those who’ve intermarried in recent generations.

So would that include Gentiles who converted to Judiasm generations ago? how would they have the same DNA? also what about Jews who have converted to Christianity, Islam, Buddhism? they would have the same DNA..

Just wondering how you could determine who’s DNA was similar in Judaism with so many Assimilations and Conversions to Judaism over thousands of years?

I ask of this because the Law of Return to Israel is that you are Jewish wether or not you practice the faith or not.
This would lend issue to many groups wether Ethiopian the Black Jews of your area Chicago could claim they are Jewish and if they could through DNA how many millions could return there?

I just was reading an article about the Jews of Japan, Iran, India all claiming to be one of the Lost Tribes.
Jews are not a race so as many Jews in the world today could trace DNA I assume by there Culture and Race, Black, Arab,Asian, Indian.

Or are you saying a Black Person, White Person,Semetic could all have the Same Hebrew DNA?


25 posted on 02/15/2009 1:00:20 PM PST by TaraP (The RAPTURE: Separation of Church and State)
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To: ChicagoHebrew

This is what I found..If you have interest.
The finding of a common set of genetic markers in both Ashkenazi and Sefardi Kohanim worldwide clearly indicates an origin pre-dating the separate development of the two communities around 1000 C.E. Date calculation based on the variation of the mutations among Kohanim today yields a time frame of 106 generations from the ancestral founder of the line, some 3,300 years, the approximate time of the Exodus from Egypt, the lifetime of Aharon HaKohen..

The finding that less than one-third of the non-Kohen Jews who were tested possess these markers is not surprising to the geneticists. Jewishness is not defined genetically. Other Y-chromosomes can enter the Jewish gene pool through conversion or through a non-Jewish father. Jewish status is determined by the mother. Tribe membership follows the father’s line.

This genetic research has clearly refuted the once-current libel that the Ashkenazi Jews are not related to the ancient Hebrews, but are descendants of the Kuzar tribe—a pre- 10th century Turko-Asian empire which reportedly converted en masse to Judaism. Researchers compared the DNA signature of the Ashkenazi Jews against those of Turkish-derived people, and found no correspondence.
http://www.cohen-levi.org/the_tribe/kohanim_forever.htm

So it seems to be a copulation of DNA markers as well as conversions who could claim Jewishness...


26 posted on 02/15/2009 1:36:07 PM PST by TaraP (The RAPTURE: Separation of Church and State)
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To: ChicagoHebrew

Just a reminder that the tribe of Judah might not know or understand but...

All Jews are of Israel, but NOT all of Israel is of Judah!

There are other tribes and mainly the tribe of Joseph in the South America!

so as far as DNA markers etc at this time in histroy there is yet more to be answered until than there is NO final word!


27 posted on 02/15/2009 2:05:44 PM PST by restornu (“God became man, so that man might become God.” — Early Christian Proverb)
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To: ChicagoHebrew
This is just going to be too much fun, especially since you come here calling everyone who disagrees with you an idiot.

All Jews have very similar DNA (regardless of denomination - Orthodox, Reform etc.), except those who've intermarried in recent generations.

See Where it says:
The Cohen hypothesis was first tested by Prof. Karl Skorecki and collaborators from Haifa, Israel, in 1997. In their study, "Y chromosomes of Jewish priests," published in the journal Nature,[2] they found that the Kohanim appeared to share a different probability distribution compared to the rest of the Jewish population for the two Y-chromosome markers they tested (YAP and DYS 19); and that furthermore the probabilities appeared to be shared by both Sephardi and Ashkenazi Cohens, pointing to a common Cohen population origin before the Jewish diaspora under the Roman empire.
In case you just don't understand, Geneticists disagree with you.

The Native Americans aren't "lost tribes" of Israel.

A rather strong claim to make just on your reputation and no supporting evidence.

Genetically, they are east Asian.

That is interesting, I have read studies that place them in Siberia, Asia, Rome, the Netherlands, actually, I am trying to think of a genome I haven't heard touted.

So how exactly did you determine that they all came from east Asia, and how did they get here?

Again, the lack of evidence supporting your assertion is well staggering in it's completeness (IE, you present nothing, and claim inescapable conclusions based on that)

They have nothing in common with any peoples from the Middle East, including Jews. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.

Yeah well, do you know who Keith Crandall is? Keith is a population geneticist, in fact, he is one of the "guys" who proved the African tribe that claimed to be descended from the Jews were in fact related.

He was asked to look into the "Book of Mormon disproved by DNA" claims being made by anti Mormons. He decided to look into it because people were quoting his work and it might affect his credibility to have his name associated with shoddy work. He was not a member of the Church at that time. After performing an in depth analysis of both the Book of Mormon, and actual genetic studies he performed himself. Keith concluded that DNA did not disprove the book of Mormon, in fact there was Strong evidence fro the Book of Mormon in the DNA he studied from Mayan descendants. Keith was so impressed that he later joined the church and now heads up "The Crandall Lab" for BYU. So let's see, who are we to believe, a professor with many papers, awards who actually was one of the pioneers of population genetics or... Say what was your name again?

In fact, there are no "lost tribes" of Israel.

That's really funny, since one of my ancestors was left behind by the group as they traveled north (her diary was preserved because she married royalty, my mom bought a copy translated from the origional Hebrew), but hey you say they don't exist, and with your track record on this post so far, who could doubt you?

Assyrian records indicate that only 27,000 people were exiled.

Do you have a link for this tidbit of information? I'm not doubting you, just wondered if you had any backup what so ever, if not maybe I could help you find some.

Most of the population was not exiled and assimilated into Judah when Judah reconquered the land of the Northern Kingdom during the reign of Josiah.

Funny, that's not what the Bible says, where is your source? Oh yeah, you don't need one, why don't you use some of mine, this one says:
How many Israelites went into dispersion? McClintock & Strong's Encyclopaedia gives us the number of Israelites at the time of the captivity: "With regard to population... In 1 Chronicles ch.21 vv.5-6, the numbers (of fighting men) are stated at 1,100,000 (Israel) and 470,000 (Judah) respectively, with the intimation that Levi and Benjamin were not included... According to the general laws observable in such cases, these numbers may be said to represent an aggregate population of from five and a half to six millions..., it may be safely reckoned that the population subject to each king was about four times the number of the fighting men in his dominions." (5) Six million Israelites went out of the land of Palestine into captivity! Out of this large number, how many ever returned? The Bible itself provides us an answer to that question. In the book of Ezra ch.2 vv.1,64-65 we read: "Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity,... The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore. Beside their servants and their maids, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred thirty and seven: and there were among them two hundred singing men and singing women."

The returning captives constituted a combined total of only 49,897 persons, or less than 8/10 of one percent of those dispersed! The remainder, nearly six million in 762BC, are still lost to recorded history.

Solid Biblical evidence therefore reveals that over 99% of God's chosen people were removed out of the land of Palestine in ancient times and thereafter lost to history. How could six million people become lost?
That was just the first page from a Google, I got almost 3 million hits, I'd be willing to wager a large percentage disagree with you, but I guess they are idiots too...

Many of the rest became the Samaritans.

The Samaritans were the descendants of the tribes of Israel who intermarried with those who were not Abraham's descendant's which is why the Jews looked on them as half breeds and not "real" Jews. Out of curiosity, where do you get this stuff?

Most Samaritans were killed over the succeeding centuries by the Jews, Romans, Byzantines and Arabs.

Actually, most people die over the succeeding centuries... how is really not important.

Most of the remainder assimilated, and are one of bases for today's Palestinian population. Have you ever met a Palestinian? They would be very upset to find out that they are descendants of the tribes of Israel, since they say they are descendants of Ishmael (the other son of Abraham). In fact the reason no one has ever "settled" the dispute int eh middle east boils down to that both sides agree that Abraham left Israel to his son along with the priesthood. The Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims claim to descend from Ishmael (the chosen son) while the Jews claim to descend from Issac (the chosen son) and the only "proof" is who is living on the land. IMHO, war there will never "end" until one side wipes out the other, or God comes down to settle the dispute himself.

A small number (about 600) still exist.

Source? I saw way more than 600 When I was over there in 2000...

The 27,000 exiles from the Northern Kingdom form the basis for the Jewish communities in northern Iran, Kurdistan and Bukhara (central Asia), all of whom have traditions of being from so-called "lost tribes." Some of the rest intermingled with the Babylonian diaspora, and others just assimilated.

I would really love to see some sources on this, My brother in law who runs tours over in the middle east for the church should get some of this information, he says they all claim to descend from Ishmael, but then, he's probably an idiot too, huh?

JFTR, I posted some videos earlier, I'll re-post them here, so you can watch them if you want to, they are by idiot professionals in the field of population genetics.

part 1 The Book of Mormon and New World DNA
part 2 The Book of Mormon and New World DNA
Part 3 The Book of Mormon and New World DNA

Book of Mormon and DNA evidence

Then, there is my posting on "Does DNA from Indians prove anything about the Book of Mormon?"

And since you seem to have chosen a side in what is supposed to be a Caucus forum, please look at: Book of Mormon, being confirmed?

Calling people "idiots is never good form, and posting "stuff" that is "out of the mainstream" without any backup is just asking to be mocked. I do not care if you are a Hebrew in Chicago, or even of Jewish descent, Jews thought the Idea of Africans who were descended from them was preposterous too.

Instead of Mocking you, I'll just post a funny video that illustrates how people look discussing other people's religions on these forums sometimes, this one is from cheers: Why can't Mormons send flowers?

You have a great day and don't hurt yourself trying to reply, I'm gonna go for a walk...
28 posted on 02/15/2009 2:13:36 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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