Posted on 02/14/2009 6:41:48 PM PST by restornu
My eyes My eyes...
Quick post a pic of a REAL man, goodlooking and manly...
The young Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones, please...
*THUD*
Your arguments would not be persuasive to these people at the National Geographic Society nor the many, many scientists pursuing these studies.
And mean nothing! Let's give an example:
As I said in a previous post, your understanding of the types and variety of dna related research makes your example incredibly obtuse as each blood cell carries individual dna and mixing blood from different people is not what is occurring in these studies. Simple enough that I get it, but your example indicates you dont.
All these studies assume a pure genetic sample to start with so their results are bogus, based on a faulty assumption which anyone who has actually read the Book of Mormon would never make on accident.
Once again, the Lemba tribe has proven your statement wrong. They worked with the samples they had and followed the genetics to Israel. Similar group of people separated by the same length of time in conditions where there was more genetic mixing than indicated in the bom.
There is lots of Jewish DNA in Europe. So once researchers have thrown out the very alleles they are looking for, they can't find them
Another flawed strawman DUh. You are assuming the science is so flawed that they cannot identify these? You need to get past the whole groups DU and realize technology and science is at a point where they have accurately categorized halogroup subtypes and sub sub types.
I was not aware I was Quoting... By definition, DNA studies can only be based on what markers are found. Saying not found is just the flip side of found. As for not supporting the BOM, the BOM is clear (if you actually read it) that while the American Indians are descendants of Joseph, the majority of their DNA could come from "elsewhere". Mormon makes a point of saying he is "a pure descendant of Lehi.
Laman was the son of Lehi, the others that came later all came from the environs around Israel, therefore they would carry the same distinctive genes that would identify them from the region. Genetic mapping doesnt trace individuals as you assume, but people groups from the same region
if Jeff Lindsay makes a good argument, you should (likewise) listen. He makes a good point and sources it.
Apparently you cannot follow the sources of info that Lindsey cited that I followed up on to see if what he was claiming in his argument had basis to be correct. Fact was he was picking selective citations that were generic enough to obfuscate the issue rather than head on.
Actually, Science like you promote would still have us sailing close to the beach so we don't fall off the edge of the earth.
My science has evidence from multiple disciplines showing the earth is round. Mormon science says the earth is flat and with enough time evidence will appear to prove them correct.
GZ: Real science takes the data, evaluates it and develops a conceptual model with which to test the data and compare other data to.
Um, that includes actually reading the book you are claiming to destroy by it's own tenets, did you? (Um... Nnnno)
Mind reading again, Ive read the book in all its glorious boredom, repetition and ridiculousness. The bom model for new world settlement is not supported by the observations and data from multiple scientific disciplines.
You obviously are as "in the dark" about how Mormons do things as you are on the scientific process of DNA studies. God knows where exactly everything took place, if he wanted us to know, we'd know. Apparently he does not think it's important for our salvation.
Oh it is important to your salvation. . . . what is that funny little book you always want me to read and pray about. . . . . it is the entry level drug for mormonism. If false, then youve been following a false prophet (I know you are anyway from other sources besides bom DNA).
Um, why exactly would anyone care if not for the Book of Mormon? Keith Crandall et al can publish all they want and your side will dismiss them faster than Satan condemns righteousness. Why would anyone who didn't have to step into the cesspool anti Mormons always seem to make of discussions that could support Mormons.
So Asian migrationists are now the new anti-mormons LOL. He would have to defend his scientific reasoning with peers in the open world. If he is the sharp noodle you say he is, his paper should revolutionize the DNA studies of the world. His peers would judge the data and interpretation on the scientific merits. Crandall is smart enough to realize that his mormon testimony is in adequate to meet the task of making up for the loss of scientific merit in such a work.
and you know that how? (you don't) you want it to be so. The Book of Mormon (which you have not read) is clear about our lack of knowledge of the history the many of the people the Nephites met in the Americas.
2 Nephi 1:8 strongly indicates the lands were empty. The bom makes no mention of any of the pre-colombian tribes that were present in the region especially those that dominated central America (just for you limited geography fans). These pre-Colombian peoples were present in the millions and already had a developed culture, as well as being quite war like. Mormon history just ran aground on the reality of pre-colombian America.
Is that what it means? Laman, Nephi's brother is also a descendent of Lehi, so being a "Pure descendant" of Lamanites would also make you a descendant of Lehi (Laman and Nephi's father). Then again if you actually read the book you might just know what you are talking about instead of making embarrassing statements like that.
The Lamanites were originally Nephites who broke off early and began their own race. As such, they too were descendents of Lehi, just like Ishmaels descendents were also descendents of Abraham. Do you want to make more embarrassing statements DU? Use bright colors when you do.
Right there, is the flaw, the Book of Mormon does not say they are the only ones there, and it explicitly talks about meeting other people in the Americas. It really helps to have read the book, you know? Now back to your illogical slander:
How do you slander a piece of fiction? Nephi indicates the lands were not occupied. The Mulekites arrived from the area of Israel. Jarodites arrived much sooner, but true to form, began fighting each other and killed each other off. Nothing even remotely resembling the cultures of pre-colombian America. So now you stopped reading the Book of Mormon because of a Scientific evidence? My mistake, I thought you had "Bad" feelings and decided God didn't want to you to read it after calling a friend. Where on earth did I get that Idea...
God is not limited to heart burn when revealing His truth.
The Mormon rebuttal to our "Position" as stated by someone who is not a Mormon, and has not even read the book he is critiquing:
Deliberate misrepresentation, but par for your course.
The Book of Mormon is not specific as to the size of land, it does mention bodies of water, but does not specify "sea to sea", nor does the Book of Mormon say Millions.
: Terms such as "multitude," "numerous," "exceedingly great," "innumerable," and "as the sands of the sea" are present in abundance in the bom. 300,000 Lamanites were involved in just one battle IIRC. You would need a population base in the millions to support an army of that size. Alma 2:17-19 reports a total of 19,094 fatalities. On the basis of these figures John Sorenson, estimated the total Nephite-Lamanite population to be over 600,000 at that time (about 200,000 Nephites-Amlicites and over 400,000 Lamanites). Helman 3:8 covers the quote about the seas quite nicely, covering the face of the whole earth.
The Book of Mormon says that at the time of Jesus Christs death, the earth in the Americas went through major earthquakes and civilization was essentially destroyed. Civilization never recovered, From the artifacts that have been found this matches with the Geological and Archeological history of the Americas.
Well, you tweaked my interest, please document these earthquakes that destroyed entire civilizations in the Americas, as this geological history should be most enlightening.
DNA geological studies require three things
As I said earlier, you ought to pass that info to the Natl Geo group doing some of the studies LOL
AFA your strawman supposition string goes Lehi, Nephi, Muelkites, Ishmael and Zoram were all from the immediate region around Israel as such they would carry the semitic genetic marker DNA. The fact that Siberian / Asiatic DNA markers are the primary ones discovered in native populations are present even before bom times (yes, thats right, in mummies dated well before 600 BC). You sequence falls apart when it hits science (see Natl Geo link earlier)
Speaking of Selective memory, did you forget that Keith Crandall is one of the Leading Scientists in the team that proved the link for the Lemba tribe? (that was why he was asked to review Simon Southerton's work...) You can't even discuss a precedent without quoting Keith Crandall's work, how can you then say he's wrong on this? I suppose he's a "fallen Scientist" now that he joined the Church... LOL!
Too bad he couldnt properly apply what he learned to the Lamanites.
ROTFLAICGU, so he didnt like his written version about angels, he wasn t happy about his age when it happened, so he fiddled around with those facts until he got something he was happy about. You haven't even bothered to go back and read those other accounts, have you.
Dictated by Joseph, maybe that was why he liked it better. Maybe he was a better speaker than a writer, that would not be surprising in someone who had a formal education of third grade.
Right, guess that is why he couldnt discern the difference between an angel, angels or Jesus or God between the accounts. Guess it helped his memory to say how old he was rather than write it down. Thats a lot of maybes DU.
Since You are the one trying to critique a book you have never read through I can understand your analogy, and I sympathize.
Say a lie often enough and someone might believe it, however DU I told you I read it are you now calling me a liar with your history LOL
Well, If you ant to believe that, Go ahead. I lost friends, so I don't joke about it. Do me one favor, Never forget.
I dont forget, but that never the less matches the argument you are making here.
Godzilla, Keith Crandall is the only Source of credible opinion that has been put forth on this thread, and he is on our side having left yours after observing the evidence.
: Factually challenged again DUh. I have cited from multiple reports to show other credible opinions so if you want to appeal to authority whos never published his close held views of mormonism and dna in a professional journal go right ahead. I could cite Southertons rebuttal to Crandall if I desired as well as post links to youtube sites countering everything Crandall may say by people equally as credible. That doesnt change the facts go post to the Natl Geo folks and see what their reply is.
Give up a losing battle or resign yourself to being that last flat earther, the believer who in opposition to all evidence just has to believe that Mormons and Mormonism is bad. We are not, and all the belief anti Mormons can muster will not change that.
LOL, all the evidence DU ROFLAICGU, I have noted at least 5 different dna study methodologies that all show native Americans originated from asia. DNA from mummies predating Nephi also shows the same thing. You hold out for the hopeful dinosaur. No, the flat earthers are mormons, all the credible evidence points to the fact that the native Americans did not originate from Hebraic/sematic peoples from the region of Israel. You are just waiting for that one evidence. Just like you are waiting for that one archaelogical find. Occams razor applied to the situation does not fall in mormons favor.
See my prior post about prophesies being fulfilled more than one.
It could be Joseph both times... Lehi was a descendant of Joseph, yeah, the one who went into Egypt, Famine 7 ears of Corn 7 cows, etc, yeah, him.
Thanks for playing got anything on DNA? (The topic of this thread you know...)
I do believe that you brought this up ...
As a Christian myself I am sorry there are times the will and ideas of man under the influence of the evil one derail us from the true spirit of the Almighty. The devil can be very effective and shifty when he leads us astray which is made worse when it is under the guise of supposedly doing God's will.
Also, love the tag line.
Shalom...
Good grief...,
It’s like trying to argue some ijit kid in his Mom’s basement...
What dumby would keep on about nutty stuff that’s so easy to refute ???
I hate it when I miss a good party...
“HI DUh...”
Dude, you’re killin’ me here...
LOL....
Man, that’s funny I don’t care who you are...
HOBBITS ARE REAL!!!
See, I have really big hairy feet. My family is from Ireland, which if you look on the inside cover of an original copy of LOTR middle earth is about where Ireland is, or at least its on the same planet. Ireland had Shires. My grandfather was short.
So I must have Hobbit DNA. possibly mixed with ELF when we came to the new land, since I am a bit taller than some of the other males in my family.
So obviously Tolkien was not writing fiction but recording history.
I was born in New Zealand where the movie was made and one of my Granddad’s was born in County Cork in Ireland...
So wez iz cuzinz
:)
WELL DONE!!!!
Of course we know facts mean little in the "scheme" (and I use the term in ALL it's connotations) of Mormon “truth”, but for the lurkers and others you have done a great service.
Odd that ;-)
The LDS scientists come up with “restored” zilch...
:)
Thank you for all your great info...
Looks like a little of the “smoothness” has begun to fade there DU...
As for what you have said, it would be as if I were to repent to God for being critical the last Grisham novel...
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