Posted on 02/05/2009 2:01:31 PM PST by NYer
The SSPX "Tradicals," whose anti-Semitic concoctions have landed their would-be new best friend, Pope Benedict XVI, in hot water, have apparently begun scrubbing the web of their worst musings. One article, "The Mystery of the Jews," which I posted about earlier, has been taken down from their U.S. site. The article was all-too representive of the ideas they embrace, and which the Pope was too quick to overlook when he lifted the excommunications on their four bishop-leaders.
But while the SSPX is dropping stuff down the memory hole as fast as they can, the Vatican is still blaming a poor communications system for the fiasco. Father Federico Lombardi, the Vatican spokesman, told a French Catholic newspaper, La Croix, on Thursday that the Vatican had--and has--no media strategy. Reuters has the story:
"We didn't control the communications," said Lombardi, whose office originally announced the pope's decision in a simple statement accompanied by the Vatican legal document that readmitted the four back into the Roman Catholic Church.
"I think we still have to create a communications culture inside the Curia, where each dicastery (ministry) communicates by itself, not necessarily thinking of going through the press room or issuing an explanatory note when the issue is complex."
[snip]
Lombardi said modern communications made it difficult for the Vatican to issue some statements.
"Certain documents are meant for specialist of canon law, others for theologians, others for all Catholics or all people," he said. "But today, whatever the type of document, it all ends up directly in the public sphere. It gets difficult to manage."
The announcement on lifting the excommunications was negotiated "up to the last minute," the spokesman said, and some points remained a bit confusing.
"The communique accompanying it left too much in doubt, giving rise to different interpretations," he said.
There is certainly a problem with the Vatican's media and communications strategy, as noted here. But there is also much to be critiqued in the message that is trying to be communicated, and the why's and wherefore's of it.
Fr. Jim Martin at "In All Things" had these stories first.
No, he went from talking about pagans and Muslims to talking about the Jews.
This is why I spend almost zero time in the FR religion forum. I'm always discovering unpleasant things about myself and others that I hadn't previously known.
I'm wondering what type of "anti-Catholic" I must be, considering that Angelqueen.org has members who are EWTN hosts, mainstream journalists, Hollywood screenwriters, Catholic authors, canon lawyers, CEOs, book sellers, priests etc.
AQ - the most visited traditional Catholic site on the planet - is read regularly by the Vatican, congressional staffers, District Superiors, heads of Catholic universities, bishops and reporters from every type of mainstream media. We've raised and continue to raise tens of thousands of dollars for causes like building new churches. We get prayer requests for the suffering and dying out to hundreds or even thousands of others to pray for them.
Should I be concerned with those who calumniate me or attempt to smear the AQ membership? Sure it's somewhat disheartening, but ultimately what they think about anyone or anything is entirely irrelevant.
So, when someone publicly calls me "anti-Catholic" or insinuates that you're an anti-semite, the source must be considered - and then ignored.
You cannot compare FR to AQ. This is an open floor debate forum; there is never a presumption of common platform. This is why it's fun: we get bar brawls. Please spend some time here, when you can, -- we need the triple-A often.
It actually has been studied, and DNA evidence has pretty solidly demolished Arthur Koestler's thesis that most Ashkenazi Jews are descended from the Khazars. Ashkenazi Jews have numerous genetic markers showing them to be more closely related to middle eastern Sephardi Jews than to non-Jewish Europeans.
The Khazar Kingdom nominally embraced Judaism as a political move-- to avoid being swallowed up by its larger and more powerful neighbors, Christian Russia and Moslem Turkey. But very few of the people actually embraced Judaism in more than name. And even the nominal conversion lasted only one or two generations.
By this I mean that from the surviving records we have, they had a fairly sophisticated level of civilization. We know that they were able to keep the Byzantines, Cossacks, and Golden Horde back enough to get breathing room, and could project enough power to have favorable treaties at times. But we know very little about them.
Most people only remember that opening line: "Presently, Oleg the Wise makes ready to avenge the reasonless Khazars".
The rest of the legend has nothing to do with Khazars as such, but the ongoing confrontation with that tribe forms the background of the narrative. Prince Oleg meets a fortune teller (both Oleg and the fortune teller are pagans). Oleg asks to know his fate, and the old man tells him that he will be kept safe through all battles but he will "accept death from his horse".
Oleg laughs, but still orders his horse, whom he considers his best friend, to be retired. The horse is given best care, richest pastures, cleanest water, etc.
Many years pass and once, while enjoying a princely feast, Oleg remembers the horse of his yesteryear. He is told that the horse had died. Oleg curses scornfully at the memory of the fortune teller and, being a sentimental sort, Oleg wishes to see the bones of the horse. He is lead to the skeleton and wistfully he lifts up the skull. A snake, that had curled up in the skull slithers onto his glove, bites the hand, and Oleg drops dead.
I wonder if that can be added to the Mystery of the Jews.
Maybe Williamson read Wastelands: Historical Truth, the book by former Croatian President Franjo Tudjman. In it, he claimed only 900,000 Jews perished "during the catastrophe of WWII." His other statements about Jews are so disgusting I can't bear to repeat them.
I still think the Brit Cardinal should stop hollering via the press. Give it time to shake out. So far, it looks like this is working out for the good.
You da man!! You're in the big leagues now.
Just ignore us poor hacks on FR.
“He disputes whether they were specifically gassed as the method of execution. He also disputes the overall six million number.”
Gee, then what were those gas chambers for, a place for dances and ice cream socials? Good grief. I guess they were Potemkin gas chambers, just there for decoration, not for use. Good grief.
You are asking me to defend a theory I don’t subscribe to. However, from what I heard, the gas chambers that exist in museums today are either reconstructions or cannot function on the scale of millions, so there is room, logically, to argue what he does.
“You are asking me to defend a theory I don’t subscribe to. However, from what I heard, the gas chambers that exist in museums today are either reconstructions or cannot function on the scale of millions, so there is room, logically, to argue what he does.”
“Crematoria and Gas Chambers
Crematorium I
Crematorium I operated [at Auschwitz] from August 15, 1940 until July 1943. According to calculations by the German authorities, 340 corpses could be burned every 24 hours after the installation of the three furnaces.
The largest room in this building was designated as a morgue. It was adapted as the first provisional gas chamber in the autumn of 1941. The SS used Zyklon B to kill thousands of Jews upon arrival, as well as several groups of Soviet prisoners of war.
Prisoners selected in the hospital as unlikely to recover their health quickly were also killed in the gas chamber. Poles sentenced to death by the German summary court.
After the establishment in Auschwitz II-Birkenau of two more provisional gas chambers, Bunkers No. 1 and 2 (the so-called “little red house” and “little white house”), the camp authorities shifted the mass murder of the Jews there and gradually stopped using the first gas chamber.
After the completion of four crematoria with gas chambers in Auschwitz II-Birkenau, the burning of corpses in Crematorium I was halted. The building was used for storage, and then designated as an SS air-raid shelter. The furnaces, chimney, and some of the walls were demolished, and the openings in the roof through which the SS poured Zyklon B were plastered.
After the war, the Museum carried out a partial reconstruction. The chimney and two incinerators were rebuilt using original components, as were and several of the openings in the gas chamber roof.
Bunker No. 1
When larger Jewish transports were sent to Auschwitz concentration camp in the first half of 1942, the Nazis began using - in addition to the first operational gas chamber - two provisional gas chambers set up in farmhouses whose owners had been evicted from the village of Brzezinka.
Jewish men, women, and children, as well as Polish political prisoners selected by physicians in the camp hospital, were killed with poison gas in Bunker No. 1, which was also known as “the little red house” (because of its brick walls). The bunker contained two provisional gas chambers. It operated from the early months of 1942 until the spring and summer of 1943, when four new buildings with gas chambers and crematorium furnaces came into use in Birkenau concentration camp. At that time, Bunker No. 1 was demolished and the adjacent burning pits were filled in and landscaped.
Bunker No. 2
When larger Jewish transports were sent to Auschwitz concentration camp in the first part of 1942, the Nazis began using - in addition to the first operational gas chamber - two provisional gas chambers set up in farmhouses belonging to people who had been expelled from the village of Brzezinka.
Jewish men, women, and children, as well as Polish political prisoners selected by physicians in the camp hospital, were killed with poison gas in Bunker No. 2, which was also known as “the little white house” (because of the color of the plaster covering its walls). The bunker contained four provisional gas chambers, which operated from 1942 four new buildings with gas chambers and crematorium furnaces came into use in Birkenau concentration camp in the spring and summer of 1943. In the period when the Germans needed additional gas chambers for the destruction of the Jews deported from Hungary in 1944, they temporarily put Bunker No. 2 back into operation.
Crematorium II
The Crematorium II building, which contained a gas chamber and furnaces for burning corpses. Several hundred thousand Jewish men, women and children were murdered here with poison gas, and their bodies burned. The bodies of Jewish and non-Jewish prisoners who died in the concentration camp were also burned here. According to calculations by the German authorities, 1,440 corpses could be burned in this crematorium every 24 hours. According to the testimony of former prisoners, the figure was higher.
The gas chamber and Crematorium II functioned from March 1943 through November 1944.
At the end of the war, in connection with the operation intended to remove the evidence of their crimes, the camp authorities ordered the demolition of the furnaces and crematorium building in November 1944. On January 20, 1945, the SS blew up whatever had not been removed.
Crematorium III
The Crematorium III building, which contained a gas chamber and furnaces for burning corpses. Several hundred thousand Jewish men, women and children were murdered here with poison gas, and their bodies burned. The bodies of Jewish and non-Jewish prisoners who died in the concentration camp were also burned here. According to calculations by the German authorities, 1,440 corpses could be burned in this crematorium every 24 hours. According to the testimony of former prisoners, the figure was higher.
The gas chamber and Crematorium III functioned from June 1943 through November 1944.
At the end of the war, in connection with the operation intended to remove the evidence of their crimes, the camp authorities ordered the demolition of the furnaces and crematorium building in November 1944. On January 20, 1945, the SS blew up whatever had not been removed.
Crematorium IV
The Crematorium IV building, which contained a gas chamber and furnaces for burning corpses.
Thousands of Jewish men, women and children were murdered here with poison gas, and their bodies burned.
The bodies of Jewish and non-Jewish prisoners who died in the concentration camp were also burned here. According to calculations by the German authorities, 768 corpses could be burned in this crematorium every 24 hours. According to the testimony of former prisoners, the figure was higher.
The apparatus of mass murder in this building functioned, with interruptions, from March 1943 until October 7, 1944. The building was burned down on the day of the mutiny of the Jewish prisoners from the Sonderkommando.
Crematorium V
The Crematorium V building contained a gas chamber and furnaces for burning corpses. Thousands of Jewish men, women and children were murdered here with poison gas, and their bodies burned.
The bodies of Jewish and non-Jewish prisoners who died in the concentration camp were also burned here. According to calculations by the German authorities, 768 corpses could be burned in this crematorium every 24 hours. According to the testimony of former prisoners, the figure was higher.
At times, the bodies of the people who had been murdered were also burned on pyres in pits located near Crematorium V and the so-called bunkers.
The apparatus of mass murder in this building functioned, with interruptions, from April 1943 until January 1945. In connection with the operation intended to remove the evidence of their crimes, the SS blew up the building on January 26, 1945.”
Source: The State Museum of Auschwitz-Birkenau.
Faith and Morality suppose History and politics (which is “social morality” and has nothing to do with political parties). Separating Faith from politics is the essence of liberal Catholicism. Moreover, historical facts are the basis of Catholic Faith: for instance, if Jesus’ birth, death and Resurrection were not historical facts, our Faith would collapse. Jesus was born under Augustus’ reign and died under Pontius Pilatus’ authority. Similarly, exterminationism is the basis of the holocaustical religion, which intends to replace the Holocaust of Jesus, Redeemer of mankind, by the Holocaust of the Jewish people.
2) It is impossible to restore Faith in its integrity without restoring social or political life (“Restaurare omnia in Christo”, was Saint Pius X’s motto) and without having an historical knowledge based on facts and not myths, especially if those are instruments to propose a new theological concept (Holocaust of the Jews) and to unhinge the traditional Catholic concept (Holocaust of the Christ).
3) Holocaust was the basis of Vatican II’s new doctrine about deicide (“Nostra aetate”), of Paul VI’s reform of Good Friday’s prayer (NOM, 1970), of John Paul II’s theory about “the Old Covenant which was never cancelled” (in Magonza, 1981). Moreover, the “theology of God’s silence” was born following reflections on Holocaust, as it is presented by the “exterminationists.” Some theologists (following Hans Jonas’ and Giovanni Battista Metz’s steps) deny Providence and God’s goodness and call into question His existence because God allowed Holocaust. Holocaust is for talmudic Judaism a “metahistorical absolute”, a sacrificial act which has a saving value. After the destruction of the Temple (70 AD), rabbinical exegesis replaced Mosaic Faith in a personal Messiah by Faith in a “collective Messiah”, who is the Jewish people. Christianism cannot accept this sacralization of the Jewish Holocaust, which would be the denying of its own identity and Faith: the only Holocaust is the Sacrifice of Christ. Admitting another saving and “metahistorical” Holocaust besides Jesus’ would be an act of apostasy. Unfortunately, the new Judaic conciliar and postconciliar theology of the council grew in a progressist Catholic environment, we hope it did not pollute the environment bound to Tradition. Therefore, the Priest’s duty is to warn the faithful.
4) It does not seem me a sin or a breaking to express one’s own opinion about historical validity of a vast literature concerning the “re-examination” (and not “negation”) of Holocaust’s thesis, introduced by the pro-Soviet Gromiko in 1948. Many historians, in Israel as well, assert there is no historical certainty about a IIIrd Reich’s plan to destroy the Jewish people with gas chambers. Of course, there were deportations to concentration camps, where many Jews were killed. Killing an innocent is a crime and a serious sin against the fifth commandment. Bishop Richard Williamson expressed it clearly during the interview, he said nothing contrary to Faith and Morality, outlined only his opinion, which does not discredit the integral Catholic doctrine. If the bishop as a bishop talks about Faith and Morality, with an ecclesiastic authority, it does not mean he could not talk , without an ecclesiastic authority, about History or social morality. Moreover, if Bishop Williamson’s positions or, better said, opinions about the Holocaust do not reflect FSSPX’s opinions, so I wonder: in such a case, if it is lawful for the Fraternity to talk about History or politics, why is it not the same for Bishop Williamson?
5) It is at least naive to deceive oneself into believing a small “mea culpa” (one hoped they came to an end with John Paul’s death) could appease the anger and the hatred of Judaism against Christ and His Church. In fact, the chief rabbi of Rome (Riccardo Di Signi) said at once that Bishop Fellay’s apologies (who only talked about “inappropriateness”) were completely insufficient and irrelevant. Thus it is necessary to re-examine the old theological positions against Judaism which, as Jules Isaac said (belittling the Holocaust), deny religious freedom (ecumenism, negation of the deicide, appropriateness of the Saint Pius V Mass), as the Italian rabbi reaffirmed in 2007. Then Di Segni asked the FSSPX not to limit itself to silence the one “negationist” bishop (who in reality is not negationist), but to make clear its very thought about Vatican II’s doctrine and about Judaism. The very problem, according to Di Segni, is the theological position of the FSSPX about Judaism, and if it is not made clear (that is, if a new position is accepted, as Bishop Lefebvre’s positions about ecumenism and deicid are clear), the question remains open. We should not to imagine to calm down a lion who wants to waste (his prey) just by giving him a little ball of meat. Di Segni will accuse us of anti-Semitism, as he did with Bishop Williamson.
6) If Jesus Christ had not made inappropriate sermons (“you whose father is the devil”, Jean, VIII, 48), he would have died in His bed and would not have accomplished the Father’s will. Saint Paul advises to “preach appropriately and inappropriately”. Saint Thomas, in the theological Sum, writes “it is necessary to preach the truth to the Jews, without being afraid of irritating them, as Jesus who taught publicly the truth which they hated, and reproached them for their vice, without being afraid of irritating them” (Saint Thomas, III, 42, 2). The Apostles were “happy to suffer persecutions” from the Sanhedrin because they preached about Christ crucified by the High Priests and they were not frightened of disrepute, on the contrary they loved it.
7) Cardinal Bagnasco was more firm and fair, he talked about a campaign orchestrated by the media. He did not re-excommunicate anyone.
8) I hope these facts will not lead to new divides. Perhaps a greater doctrinal firmness and a real brotherly charity would have saved what a harshness of heart and a theological-historical-political weakness seem to have endangered. The responsible one does not seem me to be Bishop Williamson: father Reginaldo Garrigou-Lagrange wrote “liberals are broad-minded in doctrine because they do not believe firmly, and pitiless in practice, because they do not really love.”
9) Endly Benedict XVI intervened (this morning) in defence, unfortunately, of the Holocaust, and he told that the normalisation of the relations with the “traditionalists” depends on their whole acceptance of Vatican II. Perhaps all these events have be useful in taking away all ambiguity, the Catholics bound to Tradition know that, if they do not accept “Nostra aetate” and the postconciliar “Judaeo-christianism”, there will be no room for them.
10) Let God give us the courage – in this sad time of “universal apostasy” – to maintain the Faith in the Holocaust of Christ, the only real Redeemer of mankind.
Don Curzio Nitoglia
28th January 2009
See #51 above. I read your tome and the underlying theme of it is anti-semitism, disguised with lofty rhetoric, signifying nothing.
Yes, that is what I have read as well.
“However, from what I heard, the gas chambers that exist in museums today are either reconstructions or cannot function on the scale of millions, so there is room, logically, to argue what he does.”
“Yes, that is what I have read as well.”
Then perhaps you would want to revise your comment about how logically, there is room for him to argue what he does, when the proof is overwhelmingly otherwise, and does not allow for his brand of “logic”, which is actually anti-semitism in disguise, well actually, not in disguise at all.
It remains to be seen whether they have genuinely cleaned house or merely swept the trash under the rugs.
But your excerpts, as well, exlpain that the original gas chambers were demolished.
“But your excerpts, as well, exlpain that the original gas chambers were demolished.”
Oh for heaven sakes, so that is supposed to mean because they were demolished they were never used? That millions of Jews weren’t exterminated by gassing? Read the stats here of how many Jews they could gas each day. Fourteen hundred plus within a 24 hour period, and eye witnesses said it was more. The Germans themselves kept extensive records of the people they gassed or killed. You just don’t want to believe it, it appears, as I believe you think just like many of the SSPX’ers, basically a holocaust denier. But each to their own. A look in the mirror might be in order here to see what you are really thinking, when you peel down through the layers of obfuscation.
I am not in SSPX and neither I or SSPX are denying the Holocaust. I explained to you the basis of bp Williamson’s views; take it up with him. SSPX and Rome did. Maybe you’ll have a better luck.
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