Grace Alone: An Evangelical Problem?

CPRF ^ | 1996 | Dr. Kim Riddlebarger

[wmfights]

Pharaoh, like Judas, is a unique character who served a specific purpose in salvation history and can not be take as a model for individual salvation.

Pharaoh was no different than any of the other 'lost souls' found in Scripture. The point was that they were used for a specific purpose by God and they did not have the free will to do otherwise.

“”Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’””

FWIW, if you could note the book, chapter and verse I can go back and read the passage to respond better.

I do note in this that it is God who transforms these people, not God waiting for them to do it themselves.

In the Calvinist universe, how can the “elect” who “stand fast through faith” ever be “cut off”?

All I can tell you as a Baptist is I believe and trust my Savior Jesus Christ.

John 10:27-28 "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

If the devil can't snatch me out of Jesus' hand I don't believe I can wiggle out.

[DaveMSmith]

You will have to search the net for his writings

Why of course. Your accusations come from a website marked as as a hate site on FR and cannot be linked.

[wmfights]

And it took the Church 1500 years to finally rediscover it???

It was never lost needing to be 'rediscovered'. A close reading of history shows that there were small Christian churches throughout history who have believed The Gospel. It was only "rediscovered" on a massive scale when the printing press made Scripture available to a much larger audience.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"It's the Arminian who "picks and chooses Scripture," forgetting the self-definition which God declared that should preface all our understanding. It is ALL of God, for His glory."

 

So your are saying that God creates sin?

 

If so, you are grossly misinterpreting that passage. The set of "things that were created by Him and for Him" does not include the categories of sin and wickedness.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++

 

"This error is EXACTLY where Arminianism leads you -- to presuming man, even with the Holy Spirit, can fulfill the law."

 

No Dr. E, you are completely wrong on this point. You are not arguing against Rome, you are arguing against Paul...

 

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

 

Specifically...

 

"...in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

 

It is those who walk in the Spirit who fulfill the righteousness requirements of the Law.

 

The born again man can live a life pleasing to God - by the power of the Holy Spirit that both inspires and enables that man to do good works. But the born again man can never take credit for these good works because they are accomplished not by the power of the flesh but by the power of the Spirit within him.

 

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

 

Good works are the reason were created in Christ Jesus and, significantly, one of the things truly predestined in God's universe.

++++++++++++++++

 

"Men are NOT saved by an infused righteousness which becomes their own. Men are not saved by obeying the law. Men are saved by Christ's righteousness and Christ's obedience alone, mercifully imputed to the sinner by God's will alone."

 

Now you are confusing Justification with Sanctification. Look again at my statement...

 

"I believe God offers salvation to all men through Christ and, to those who are willing to receive Him, He grants the Holy Spirit by faith whereby they are able to fulfill the righteousness of the Law and live a life which is pleasing in God’s sight."

 

Let me break it down...

 

Salvation is freely offered (Justification) AND to those willing to receive it He grants the Holy Spirit Who energizes them live a life of good works, well pleasing in God's sight (SANCTIFICATION).

 

Think about this. John commands us to "love one another". Love is a good deed. Love is the fulfillment of the Law, ("for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.").

 

Can you claim to be justified and not love your brother? I.E. can you claim to be justified and not exhibit the "good work" if it is possible for you to do so?

 

Let John answer...

 

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"

 

No, you MUST love your brother, you MUST exhibit this good work OR YOU ARE A LIAR about your faith.

 

And how do you love your brother? By yielding your life to the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to love thought you, for love is the fruit of the Spirit.

 

That is the person who, by the Spirit, is able to fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law.

 

That is the whole story. Anything less is an unbiblical truncation.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"It was never lost needing to be 'rediscovered'. A close reading of history shows that there were small Christian churches throughout history who have believed The Gospel."

 

Please don't confuse Calvinism/predestination with "the Gospel". Paul certainly didn't.

 

"Now I would remind you, brothers  of the gospel  I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—  unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. "

 

One of the striking weaknesses of Calvinism is that they can only find one reputable Church father (Augustine) to look to for support in over 1500 years of Church history.

 

 

[wmfights]

PM: “Calvinists did not make up the Plan of Salvation and/or it’s accompanying doctrine of predestination. All of it is biblical. “

PM: Please don't confuse Calvinism/predestination with "the Gospel". Paul certainly didn't.

If THE GOSPEL is not the "Plan of Salvation" what is?

One of the striking weaknesses of Calvinism is that they can only find one reputable Church father (Augustine) to look to for support in over 1500 years of Church history.

Who cares?

The only measure of it's validity is if it is consistent with Scripture.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Pharaoh was no different than any of the other 'lost souls' found in Scripture. The point was that they were used for a specific purpose by God and they did not have the free will to do otherwise."

 

That is simply not true. On the positive side, Paul was called for a specific purpose, yet he was conscious of the fact that it would be possible for him to fail to fulfill his calling.

 

"For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!" - 1 Cor 9

 

Or look how Mordecai counseled Esther:

 

"Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself that thou shalt escape in the king's house, more than all the Jews. For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this? " - Esther 4

 

God allows free will, but he does not allow free will to thwart His plans. If you choose not to fulfill your calling He will simply find another to do it - and you will suffer.

 

++++++++++++++++

 

"' FWIW, if you could note the book, chapter and verse I can go back and read the passage to respond better."

 

I'm sorry - it's a few verses down in the chapter you quoted.

 

++++++++++++++++

 

 I do note in this that it is God who transforms these people, not God waiting for them to do it themselves.

 

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! "

 

- Matthew 23:37

 

++++++++++++++++

 

" If the devil can't snatch me out of Jesus' hand I don't believe I can wiggle out."

 

You can not pick and choose what to find comfort in my friend.

 

Look what Jesus goes on to say in John 15...

 

"I am the  true vine, and my Father is  the vinedresser.  Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide  in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."

 

Can you take comfort in that?

 

YES! You can take comfort in the fact that God is not a respecter of persons, that He doesn't cut secret deals, and He has laid all His cards on the table, so to speak. You will not be surprised on Judgment day by some unknown requirement. He has openly and honestly revealed all the information you need to know that could effect your eternal destiny.

 

Do not let a theology blind you to what Jesus clearly says.

[PetroniusMaximus]

” Who cares? The only measure of it’s validity is if it is consistent with Scripture.”

And how do you determine that you are the first group to correctly interpret the Scriptures in over 1500 years?

Don’t you see a glaring problem with that?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Church fathers? You really sound like a Romanist now. How about these guys?

JOHN GILL
Part Four
PREDESTINATION

SECTION 1. - Clemens Romanus

SECTION 2. - Ignatius

SECTION 3. - Justin

SECTION 4. - Minutius Felix

SECTION 5. - Irenaeus

SECTION 6. - Clemens Alexandrinus

SECTION 7. - Tertullian

SECTION 8. - Origenes Alexandrinus

SECTION 9. - Caecillius Thascius Cyprianus

SECTION 10. - Novatianus

SECTION 11. - Athanasius

SECTION 12. - Hilarius Pictaviensis

SECTION 13. - Basilius Caesariensis

SECTION 14. - Cyrillus Hierosolymitanus

SECTION 15. - Gregorius Nazianzenus

SECTION 16. - Hilarius Diaconus

SECTION 17. - Ambrosius Mediolanensis

SECTION 18. - Joannes Chrysostomus

SECTION 19. - Hieronymus

But more than Augustine or Jerome Zanchius or Cyril Lucaris or John Calvin or Martin Luther, listen to Paul...

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." -- Eph. 1:4-6

Don't get stuck in the myopia of asking did God ordain what we had for breakfast (although in a very real sense He did.) Consider who God is. Nothing exists except for His declaration of it. At the same moment God breathed the world into existence and ordained Christ on the cross every movement of every atom was set in stone in the mind of God according to His perfect good pleasure. Starting from that awareness, we make our way through life and scripture and try our best to live lives that glorify the unmerited gift of grace He has freely given us.

If this Biblical truth is one of "Calvinism's weaknesses," please, God, give me more of it. Romans 9:11 -- chosen to be His children before we were born, before we could do anything good or not so good.

[1000 silverlings]

Since when is Stanford University’s online resources a “hate site?”

[1000 silverlings]

http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/sitemap.htm

Have fun

[DaveMSmith]

Since when is Stanford University’s online resources a “hate site?”

Yes, the hate site links to Standford... LOL

Standford doesn't contain anything about him being a communist or 'King was a double-minded man, and his behavior in private was at odds with his pose as a Baptist minister.'.

Anyway, King was an adolesent when he began questioning the Resurrection and Virgin birth... he wrote about it in 1949, while still a young man. I had my doubts also -- in today's culture, it's not uncommon.

These ideas certainly do not coincide with what Swedendenborg writes. In fact, Swedenborg describes very well, in a spritual sense, how the virgin birth of the Lord and Resurrection took place .

The quote I gave for MLK was sometime after 1958. From the quote, he obviously spent time reading Swedenborg -- he uses 'understand' twice. I'll give him the benefit of your doubt and believe he changed his mind.

[DaveMSmith]

Have fun

It shows me that MLK rejected the Baptist theology being fed to him. He even made it through Bible college with serious doubts, rationalizing Christ's Divinity, etc. He wasn't 'double-minded' -- he was quite honest how he felt about things.

He was a wayward Christian who eventually found meaning in Swedenborg's writings. He applied them in a way that few have in history. Many of his late papers are yet to be published... it should be interesting to see how his truths of faith were influenced and developed from his youth.

[1000 silverlings]

So you admit he was “a wayward Christian”, lol. Let’s see, he didn’t believe that all of the bible was God’s word, he believed Christ was “just a man”, he did not believe in the Resurrection or the virgin birth of Christ, he committed adultery and bragged that he was “doing it for God”, although he used terms unbecoming a Baptist preacher, and then he turned to a man instead of the bible for guidance. Okie dokie

[aruanan]

Every word, though extreme to our tenderized, modern ears, is Scriptural. I understand Calvin because Calvin understood Scripture. All quite foreign within our humanist world view, isn't it?

Every word that Calvin wrote is not scriptural. What Calvin wrote was foreign not only to a modern humanist viewpoint (though it actually isn't given his fundamental notion of determinism which underlies the modern humanist viewpoint--and probably laid the groundwork for it) but also to the preceding 1530 or so years of the Christian church. He was not a reformer but an innovator who swept everything aside and said that understanding scripture depended on knowing the secret counsel of God and that this knowledge had been made known to him.

[PetroniusMaximus]

“He was not a reformer but an innovator who swept everything aside and said that understanding scripture depended on knowing the secret counsel of God and that this knowledge had been made known to him.”

Did he actually say that or is that a paraphrase.

Because if he did, that is devastating.

[AppyPappy]

Find me any theological belief and I can find Scripture to support it and refute it. Falling From Grace, One Saved Always Saved, Perseverence of the Saints, Limited Atonement, etc.

All of theology is based on man’s attempt to explain man’s role in obtaining his freely given inhieritence from God.

[aruanan]

"God's Providence does not exculpate our wickedness"

"The same men wrongly and rashly lay the happenings of past time to the naked providence of God...If all such men are serving God's will, why should they be punished? On the contrary, I deny that they are serving God's will..."

To which we appose:

"The devil and wicked men are so held in on every side with the hand of God, that they cannot conceive, or contrive, or execute any mischief, any farther than God himself doth not permit only, but command. Nor are they only held in fetters, but compelled also, as with a bridle, to perform obedience to those commands." (Calv. Inst., b. 1, c. 17, S. 11.)

Flip-flopping is a problem with Calvin as is also his giving words different meanings at different times. Of course, he's denying they're "serving" God's will. If every motion of every atom of your body, every thought you think, every action you take is determined before all time and creation began by the will of God alone, unconditioned by any foreknowledge of God or choice by man, then it is impossible that anyone should "serve" God, except in the sense that the table I make "serves" my purpose by holding my dinner plate.

[1000 silverlings]

Why is it devastating when the magisterium of the Catholic Church claims the same thing, as does the Pope? Moreover, the New testament is all about the work of the HS. Let alone the old Job 15:8, Amos 3:7

[PetroniusMaximus]

“Why is it devastating when the magisterium of the Catholic Church claims the same thing, as does the Pope?”

Much to Dr. Eckleburg’s chagrin, I am not a defender of the Catholic Church.