St Mary's priest will take his flock with him (renegade priest to break with Rome)

Courier Mail ^ | January 9, 2009 | Trent Dalton

[NYer]

MAVERICK priest Father Peter Kennedy says he will lead a breakaway congregation if Brisbane's catholic Archbishop forces him to leave St Mary's Church.

There are fears that exclusion from the historic South Brisbane property will be the final act in a long-running dispute that has reached the Vatican. The dispute has attracted national and international attention because it represents the battle between conservative and less traditional forces within the Catholic Church.

There are more Roman Catholics in Australia than any other religious group. Each week, St Mary's attracts large congregations while many more orthodox Catholic parishes struggle to fill pews. In a rare and exclusive interview, Father Kennedy said he was determined to carry on.  "The reality is that, if we are excluded from this church, the Trades and Labor Council have already offered us their place just down the road," he said. "I will continue. Our community will continue down there. We get 800 to 900 people coming every week. It's a vibrant, alive mass with people from all over the city."

St Mary's is known for its unconventional Catholic practices - allowing women to preach, blessing homosexual couples and recognising with ritual the traditional sovereignty of the indigenous people of the area. The latest round in the battle was sparked by a complaint direct to the Vatican in August from an aggrieved church-goer.

Brisbane Archbishop John Bathersby accused the parish of operating outside the accepted practices of the Roman Catholic Church and encouraged Father Kennedy to fall in line or face closure. The parishioners responded to the accusations but - in a follow-up letter to Father Kennedy, dated December 22 - Archbishop Bathersby said: "St Mary's has not yet adequately given proof of its communion with the Archdiocese of Brisbane and the Roman Catholic Church."

[tioga]

Contraception, priest marrying? What fantasy world do you live in?

“Get behind me, Satan.” Matthew 16:23

[Antoninus]

Should married Catholics all just be rabbits, abstain, or leave the church?

"Be fruitful and multiply. Gee, now, who said that?

Life is good. The idea of sex divorced from the possibility of procreation is the cause of about 50% of society's problems right now.

The Church was, is, and will remain 100% correct on this issue.

[Antoninus]

And in all absolute seriousness, refusal to allow contraception would surely create more problems than it may solve if Catholic priests marry. It would cause a complete change and then the recognition of the church would be gone.

For the record, I'm a relatively young Catholic. My wife and I have never practiced contraception and we have our 6th child on the way.

Rejecting the contraceptive mentality has been such a great blessing. Contraception is linked directly to divorce, STDs, sodomy, out-of wedlock-pregnancy, and ultimately abortion. It all stems from the false mindset that the sex act can be de-coupled from procreation without debasing the relationship between husband and wife. It can't.

Are you contracepting? If so, I would ask you, in absolute seriousness, to look into the Church's teachings on this issue very carefully and understand that every single dire prediction made when the idea of artificial contraception was first made widespread has come to pass in spades.

[Jeff Chandler]

“Women in our church who feel the need to speak”

After having been raised by a woman, having lived with a woman for 32 years, and having raised three women, I can state with much authority and confidence that not only do all women feel the need to speak, they do indeed speak at every possible occasion.

[A.A. Cunningham]

You were poorly catechized and are thus ignorant of the faith.

Put forth some effort and learn the truth about the bride of Christ.

[BlackElk]

jilliane: Any actual Catholic reviewing your posts on this thread would have plenty of reason to question your claim to Catholicism and your agenda. I was in my teens during Vatican II, was baptized Catholic in infancy, had the benefit of a Jesuit prep school education so very long ago that the Jebbies were still Catholic, continue to hold to the Faith ever since and know the difference between the liberal somewhat male bimbos who have infected the priesthood and the minds of the poorly catechized. Miss Marple and I have not been notably close on Free Republic but your insult hurled at her conversion is uncalled for and marks you for the modernist that you are.

The sad institution known to many of us as AmChurch is passing away along with the Jadot bishops who have encouraged the widespread apostasy of the last several decades. You will find that the large families in Catholicism are very much associated with the traditional Church that is re-emerging after a forty year festival of liberal lunacy.

If you ever risk being catechized, you could do worse than reading about three pages a day of Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis and meditating on his wisdom until you finish the book.

Final clue: Neither Noam Chomsky nor Saul Alinsky were Catholic theologians and neither is Gloria Steinem.

[A.A. Cunningham]

Absolutely wrong.

Yes indeed you are.

CELIBACY - A HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE

The tradition of a nun is to be a celibate - the nature of a nun is to do the work of the church.

Time for you to brush up on St. Paul.

"And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband." 1 Corinthians 7:34

[A.A. Cunningham]

I think the Catholic church would be stronger and healthier if it included priests who wish to marry

Something else you never learned is that 21 of the 22 Churches sui juris which comprise the Catholic Church ordain, as a norm, married men. All 21 of those Churches are experiencing a shortage of Priests as is the Greek Orthodox Church.

I can’t find any word of God that says men shall not marry and be Catholic priests.

Celibacy is a discipline praised by both Christ, a celibate, and St. Paul, also a celibate, as a higher calling in the service of Almighty God.

If you're going to pretend that you are well versed in Scripture, it would behoove you to actually read and comprehend it first lest you expose yourself as ignorant of the topic you opine on.

"For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it." Matthew 19:12

"Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have? And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting. And many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first." Matthew 19:27-30

"Then Peter said: Behold, we have left all things, and have followed thee. Who said to them: Amen, I say to you, there is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive much more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting." Luke 18:28-30

"For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that. But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I." 1 Corinthians 7:7-8

"But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife, is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided.: 1 Corinthians 7:32-33

You need to stop listening to people who let their genitals govern how they live their lives and determine their worth.

[A.A. Cunningham]

There's no "h" in Teresa.

[Miss Marple]

Thanks for the spelling correction, A.A. Cunningham. A woman who is on her way to sainthood deserves to be remembered correctly.

BlackElk, thank you for your generous defense. I sincerely appreciate it.

[jilliane]

“Something else you never learned is that 21 of the 22 Churches sui juris which comprise the Catholic Church ordain, as a norm, married men. All 21 of those Churches are experiencing a shortage of Priests as is the Greek Orthodox Church.”

That’s a really good point.

[jilliane]

I never said there was an h in Teresa (the Little Flower?)

[jilliane]

I got a great deal out of your postings.

The article in question simply did not provide enough facts - it didn’t say women were celebrating mass, it said they were preaching. I don’t need to tell you there is a difference. This whole discussion would never have happened had the “when and where” reported she was celebrating mass.

To be clear, as undoubtedly my words were poorly chosen, I would be very upset if a woman took to the altar to celebrate mass because they have not received the sacrament of Holy Orders and they do not have the right to celebrate a mass. I fully support that. I was simply asking the question, ‘Why can’t a woman receive that sacrament?’. And, ‘Why can’t priests marry?’. That is very different that saying I think existing priests should get married and women should say mass. I never said any of those things and I simply don’t believe they should.

Through your thoughtful responses, I really feel a new understanding of this. Your historic references and facts were meaningful and I appreciate your amazing knowledge and documented explanation. I listen better when I’m being presented intelligent facts instead of a diatribe about ones moral superiority over me and constant insults.

I regret I got angry and regret a couple comments I made in response to some of the postings I was receiving from some others and regret if I caused anyone the anxiety I clearly must have.

As I was falling asleep last night I realized there were things I posted that caused people to get upset and that upset me, too. As for the good Sisters of Notre Dame and the Benedictines, they surely did not fall down on their job. You have reminded me of so much I used to know and forgotten and also gave great new input on this question.

Thanks.

[jilliane]

I take that back, I surely did say Mother Theresa...thank you for that...Mother Teresa.

[AnAmericanMother]

And in all absolute seriousness, refusal to allow contraception would surely create more problems than it may solve if Catholic priests marry. It would cause a complete change and then the recognition of the church would be gone.

I'm confused. Are you saying that once Catholic priests are allowed to marry, the Church has to allow contraception, or there would be a complete change?

Doesn't that tell you something right there?

Basically, you have the opinion that all these innovations would be a GOOD thing for the Catholic church.

Will you please respond to my repeated factual information that these innovations were already tried in the Episcopal Church and it has been disastrous?

In other words, your opinion is wrong and the experiment has already been made, and it failed.

Why do you want to do it again, and destroy another church? One isn't enough?

(FYI, the Episcopal Church (Anglican in Britain) was the first church to allow contraception. That was at the Lambeth Conference in 1930. Before that, ALL churches forbade contraception.)

[jilliane]

I think you missed my posting...look up a couple, you are included on the c.c.

[AnAmericanMother]

Just read your reply this morning. Morning brings wisdom to me too.

I was a bit frustrated last night because I've seen all this played out before, by well-meaning ladies infected with the feminist virus and thinking that they were doing a Great Thing for the Episcopal Church.

My 4xgreat grandfather, John Bale, was baptized in St. Giles Cripplegate Church in London, where Cromwell was married and John Milton is buried. My parents and my grandparents were soloists in Episcopal choirs. I sang in Episcopal choirs from the age of 6. I love with all my heart the great ringing words of Archbishop Cranmer's Prayer Book.

I am bereft. All that was taken from me . . . by people with the very best of intentions. At least most of them had good intentions, there were those who were intent on wrecking the church, but they could never have done it without the assistance of all those well intentioned women and the men who went along with them to keep peace in the family.

I love the Catholic Church even though the words of the modern liturgy lack the music and poetry of Cranmer's inspired work . . . even though the music in most places causes serious musicians to grit their teeth . . . even though in the attempt to be modern and ecumenical and up to date many Catholic parishes have abandoned their great tradition of splendid art and ritual and beauty . . . because this is where Truth is.

The Episcopal Church retains all the things that I loved (except the Prayer Book, they got rid of that) but I will not trade them for Truth.

[jilliane]

I got off track with what I was trying to say and then I just got irritated. LOL

The Catholic church is very lucky to have devout followers who are not going to cave to liberals - history is the best example. I’m really not a liberal though I can surely understand how my questions would have sounded so. Really interesting comparisons about the liturgy and music - and oh how true - and I really will remember this. Thanks again.

[Dr. Sivana]

Dear Jilliane,

I did not participate in this thread, but I was pinged by BlackElk.

Your later response showed humility and thoughtfulness. If some of us (including me) seem kind of surly at times, it is because we have seen people with an agenda who pose as something else. Certain words and phrases tend to cause us to release the safety.

Few Catholics these days are instructed in what comprises the Deposit of Faith. Even those of us who have been more or less properly instructed find the study to be a lifelong undertaking. When there are too many priests, scholars and commentators of all political stripes (including William F. Buckley and Sean Hannity) who confuse these things, it is understandable that some things that are unchangeable would appear to be up for grabs.

You will find many well-informed people on this site, including some who have responded. Often these responses are marked by good, solid references to reinforce their argument. Elk is usually light on those references because he never quite got that Internet-thingy down. However, he will be quick to defend an honest person with whom he often has a disagreement (e.g. Hildy). He also is very well read on papal writings and is more than a little familiar with Church history.

I believe that you want to be a good Catholic, but not necessarily “more Catholic than the Pope.” That’s fine. For my part, my Catholic Faith has been an anchor. It is my home. Although I am far from perfect in the practice, the depth of what the Church is and what she offers has already been felt keenly in my life. We are blessed to be near an Institute of Christ the King church. Not having the distraction of innovative priests and lay people has really helped us instruct our children in what the Church is. To where else would we go? Her Founder has the Words of Eternal Life?

[Dr. Sivana]

That last question mark should be a period.