Replies

Sorry; but you've shifted away from Sola Scriptura.

First of all, no, I was not shifting away from Sola Scriptura. I was stating the fact that Sola Scriptura is not a doctrine that is supported by Scripture, and therefore Sola Scriptura is a contradictory doctrine that is fundamentally at error with itself. The Scripture you cited was referencing the Old Testament, not the New Testament. So, I am very much keeping on topic. The fact of the matter is, you cannot find a NT citation that says the NT is the sole rule of faith -- which is what Sola Scriptura implies must be the case -- and that is because such Scripture does not exist in the Bible. Hence, Sola Scriptura is bunk. I'm not sure how to be any more clear or direct on the matter.

Show ME where we are to use TRADITIONS OF MEN along WITH Scripture.

No one, least of all the Church, says that the traditions of men are an authority. The Sacred Tradition -- which includes both the oral and written Word of the authoritative Church, including the Bible -- is the authority. This is not a tradition of men, but rather a tradition of the Church guided by the Holy Spirit through History, as was promised by Christ. Big difference.

The Bible says so. The Church recieved Christ's promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Matt. 16:18), that He would always be with it (Matt. 28:20), and that He would give it the Holy Spirit to teach it all truth. (John 16:13). To the visible head of His Church, St. Peter, Our Lord said: "And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdowm of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven; and, whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." (Matt. 16:19). It is plainly evident from these passages that Our Lord emphasized the authority of His Church and the role it would have in safeguarding and defining the Deposit of Faith.

But if that isn't enough for you, realize that Scripture itself states that it is insufficient of itself as a teacher, but rather needs an interpreter:

We read in 2 Peter 3:16 that in St. Paul's epistles there are "certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest [distort], as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction."

In this one verse we note three very important things about the Bible and its interpretation: (a) the Bible contains passages which are not readily understandable or clear, a fact which demonstrates the need for an authoritative and infallible teacher to make the passages clear and understandable; (b) it is not only possible that people could "wrest" or distort the meaning of Scripture, but this was, in fact, being done from the very earliest days of the Church; and (c) to distort the meaning of Scripture can result in one's "destruction," a disastrous fate indeed. It is obvious from these considerations that St. Peter did not believe the Bible to be the sole rule of faith. But there is more.

In Acts 8:26-40, we read the account of the deacon St. Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. In this scenario, the Holy Spirit leads Philip to approach the Ethiopian. When Philip learns that the Ethiopian is reading from the prophet Isaias, he asks him a very telling question: "Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?" Even more telling is the answer given by the Ethiopian: "And how can I, unless some man show me?"

Whereas this St. Philip (known as "the Evangelist") is not one of the twelve Apostles, he was nonetheless someone who was commissioned by the Apostles (cf. Acts 6:6) and who preached the Gospel with authority (cf. Acts 8:4-8. Consequently, his preaching would reflect legitimate Apostolic teaching. The point here is that the Ethiopian's statement verifies the fact that the Bible is not sufficient in itself as a teacher of Christian doctrine, and people who hear the Word do need an authority to instruct them properly so that they may understand what the Bible says. If the Bible were indeed sufficient of itself, then the eunuch would not have been ignorant of the meaning of the passage from Isaias.

If that is not enough for you, there is also 2 Peter 1:20, which states that "no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation." Here we see the Bible itself stating in no uncertain terms that its prophecies are not a matter for which the individual is to arrive at his own interpretation. Is is also most telling that this verse is preceded by a section on the Apostolic witness (verses 12-18) and followed by a section on false teachers (chapter 2, verses 1-10). St. Peter is obviously contrasting genuine, Apostolic teaching with false prophets and false teachers, and he makes reference to private interpretation as the pivotal point between the two. The clear implication is that private interpretation is one pathway whereby an individual turns from authentic teaching and begins to follow erroneous teaching.

>>>The Bible says so. The Church recieved Christ’s promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Matt. 16:18), that He would always be with it (Matt. 28:20), and that He would give it the Holy Spirit to teach it all truth. (John 16:13).

No where does it say that the Church, run by fallen men,
will always do what is right or always teach the truth. They
do fail regularly - sometimes catastrophically - and each
new generation seems to fail in a major way.

>>>In this one verse we note three very important things about the Bible and its interpretation: (a) the Bible contains passages which are not readily understandable or clear, a fact which demonstrates the need for an authoritative and infallible teacher to make the passages clear and understandable; (b) it is not only possible that people could “wrest” or distort the meaning of Scripture, but this was, in fact, being done from the very earliest days of the Church; and (c) to distort the meaning of Scripture can result in one’s “destruction,” a disastrous fate indeed. It is obvious from these considerations that St. Peter did not believe the Bible to be the sole rule of faith.
a. nowhere does it say an “infallible teacher” is possible
or needed. It simply says it is hard to understand.
b. sometimes it is church leaders that distort scripture
c. yep - but that doesnt’ support your conclusion, friend.

>>>The point here is that the Ethiopian’s statement verifies the fact that the Bible is not sufficient in itself as a teacher of Christian doctrine, and people who hear the Word do need an authority to instruct them properly so that they may understand what the Bible says.

Hence, the gift of teachers to the church!

>>>If the Bible were indeed sufficient of itself, then the eunuch would not have been ignorant of the meaning of the passage from Isaias.

Not so. It simply points out the need for the spiritual gift
of teachers God promises to give the church.

>>>2 Peter 1:20

“The alleged light of the false teachers was no light at all.
1:20 Peter wanted to add a word of clarification about Old Testament predictions. “First of all” probably means that what Peter proceeded to say was of first importance. Bible students have recognized that what he said about Messianic prophecy in particular is true of prophecy generally. “Prophecy” is another word for the Word of God since it is what the Old Testament writers “spoke forth,” the literal meaning of the Greek word propheteia, translated “prophecy.” Verse 21 helps explain what Peter meant by the last clause in verse 20.
1:21 What we have in Scripture did not originate in the minds of men but in the mind of God.
“False teaching flows from the minds of men and women; truth flows from the heart and mind of the living God.”66
The prophets did not simply give their interpretation of how things were or would be (v. 20). They spoke as God’s mouthpieces articulating His thoughts in words that accurately represented those thoughts. The Holy Spirit “moved” the prophets to do so as the wind moves a sailboat (cf. John 3:8). The same Greek verb (phero) occurs in Acts 27:15 and 17 to describe that action.
“The Spirit, not human volition, is the originating power in prophecy.”67

Tom Constable: Tom Constable’s Expository Notes on the Bible. Galaxie Software, 2003; 2003, S. 2 Pe 1:19-21

A reading of the context says you have drawn the wrong
conclusion about this passage. Have you considered the
possibility that you may be wearing colored glasses that
influence what you are seeing? It is a very human thing
to do.

In any case, maybe some day we can tour the Vatican archives
together and then have a great expresso in a local Italian
expresso shop, overlooking Vatican Square. :-) yum

best,
ampu

...he asks him a very telling question: "Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?" Even more telling is the answer given by the Ethiopian: "And how can I, unless some man show me?"

Again; what the mna 'showed' him, was how to understand the SCRIPTURE - not some extra traditions.

If that is not enough for you, there is also 2 Peter 1:20, which states that "no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation." Here we see the Bible itself stating in no uncertain terms that its prophecies are not a matter for which the individual is to arrive at his own interpretation.

No; it ISN'T.

It means that the interpretation is PUBLIC - not some hidden away, arcane teaching.

When Scripture has to be 'explained' in a way that differs from what it PLAINLY says; then that 'interpretation' is undoubtably wrong.

This is not a tradition of men, but rather a tradition of the Church ...
Oh...

THAT's the difference then.

To the visible head of His Church, St. Peter, Our Lord said: "And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdowm of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven; and, whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." (Matt. 16:19). It is plainly evident from these passages that Our Lord emphasized the authority of His Church and the role it would have in safeguarding and defining the Deposit of Faith.

Let's look at OTHER verses; too...

Is Peter the 'rock'?

NIV Matthew 4:18-19
18. As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
19. "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

NIV Matthew 8:14
14. When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.

NIV Matthew 10:1-2
1. He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

NIV Matthew 14:28-31
28. "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
29. "Come," he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
30. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
31. Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

NIV Matthew 15:13-16
13. He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
14. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
15. Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
16. "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'

BEFORE the following verses came along.....

NIV Matthew 16:13-18
13. When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14. They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15. "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17. Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
4. and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

NIV Luke 6:48
48. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.

NIV Romans 9:33
33. As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
4. As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
5. you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6. For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
7. Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
8. and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???

NIV Genesis 49:24-25
24. But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
25. because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty, who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.

NIV Numbers 20:8
8. "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."

NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
4. He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
15. Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.

NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
18. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
30. How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
31. For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.

NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
2. "There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.

NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
2. He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
3. my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.

NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
32. For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
47. "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!

NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
3. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
4. he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'

NIV Psalms 18:2
2. The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

NIV Psalms 18:31
31. For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

NIV Psalms 18:46
46. The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!

NIV Psalms 19:14
14. May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

NIV Psalms 28:1

1. To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.

NIV Psalms 31:2-3
2. Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
3. Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.

NIV Psalms 42:9
9. I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"

NIV Psalms 62:2
2. He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.

NIV Psalms 62:6
6. He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.

NIV Psalms 62:7
7. My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.

NIV Psalms 71:3
3. Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.

NIV Psalms 78:35
35. They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.

NIV Psalms 89:26
26. He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'

NIV Psalms 92:14-15
14. They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
15. proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."

NIV Psalms 95:1
1. Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

NIV Psalms 144:1
1. Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

NIV Isaiah 17:10
10. You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

NIV Isaiah 26:4
4. Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.

NIV Isaiah 30:29
29. And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

NIV Isaiah 44:8
8. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

NIV Habakkuk 1:12
12. O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.

.....No other rock.............