you wrote:
“You just posted a verse that you claim says you have to work for your salvation:”
No, I did not. The verse says nothing about working FOR your salvation. It says “work OUT your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Out. Not “for.” Working “for” something means you pursue the actual accomplishment of that thing. Working something “out” means you try to figure out how what it takes for it to happen. Those are two different processes.
“You guys claim that you must eat the flesh of Jesus to get eternal salvation...Well, if that’s not doing works, what is???”
Again, we see that you create straw men. It is not we who do the work of the sacraments. It is God. We merely cooperate with God in the reception of the sacrament. Through the sacrament, God gives us grace. He accomplished the work for the grace (on the Cross). We merely receive it through our cooperation. How is that any different than what Evangelicals believe about “Committing themselves to Christ”? Isn’t that a work? Even if only a work of the will? Yes, it’s a work, but only of a sort. You receive no grace whatsoever for doing it in itself. You only make yourself open for God’s grace. You make yourself disposed to receiving His grace. In other words, you cooperate with God. You lost this debate a long, long time ago.
“Forgetting that Jesus NEVER told anyone how to go about changing flesh into broken bread,...”
He did at the Last Supper and His actions and words were copied exactly. Haven’t you ever thought about that?
“... and forgetting that Jesus said, do this (in memory of Me) every time you eat broken bread, Jesus is telling folks to do something for eternal security, according to you guys...”
Why would you forget - ever - God’s words as if they are meaningless? Once again, we see what Protestants really think of the Word of God they claim to honor.
“Just like baptism...You MUST be baptized to get the Holy Spirit, or Salvation, depending on which Catholic source you are reading...You must perform a work to get salvation...”
Again, no. God performed the work on the cross. We merely cooperate with God. Also, God Himself told us that the grace of baptism is for salvation. That is, if you actually believe Mark 16:16. Since you’re Protestant, you probably will not believe that verse either. Again, will we see that Protestant Anti-Catholics only pay lip service to honoring the scriptures?
“And then there is Grace...Does Grace come freely??? Not if you’re a Catholic...You can pray to Mary and ask her to dispense some Grace to you...Or you can perform the works of the sacraments and earn some Grace...”
Wrong again. Grace is a freely given gift, but God does not save people against their will. If a man never prays, will he be saved? I’m willing to bet you believe that those who pray sincerely in their lives are much more likely to receive grace then those who never prayed at all, right? So, is prayer working for grace? If you pray for grace itself, are you working for it? Do you have the courage to even attempt an answer to those questions?
Here are the answers in any case: A man who sincerely prays will be saved before a man who never does. Period. It is not because he is working in sense. It is because he is conforming - sincerely - to God’s will for God commands us to pray unceasingly and he thus renders himself more disposed to God’s grace thereby. He is able to more fully cooperate with God than the man who never prays.
Now, “is prayer working for grace?” No. But it does make you more disposed to receive grace. That isn’t working for grace. That is making yourself more open to grace. If you can’t see the difference then you have a greater problem. You have been praying for God’s help for years and yet you believe (according to your rejection of what I say, if that’s the case) that you’re working to get something from God. Shame on you for “working” for grace and violating your own conscience!
“If you pray for grace itself, are you working for it?”
No. God is still the gift giver. He gives His gifts freely. All your prayer does is prepare you for the gift. It does not accpmplish the gift, nor produce the grace, nor anything else.
“But yet you do nothing for salvation...They call that double-speak...”
I use no double-speak at all. Protestants are often unable to think clearly. They often make the mistaking everything as an either/or situation. I do not make that mistake. Let me demonstrate this. Do you believe praying for grace is working for grace? I doubt you do. What if you pray aloud, pray on your knees, pray while reading the Psalms, recite the psalms, sing the psalms, etc.? Is any of that working for grace on your part? I am sure you will deny that it is. How is that any different than receiving the Eucharist? How is that any different than being baptized? Is having another person pouring water over you “more work” for you than you yourself kneeling in prayer with a Bible in your hand reading aloud the psalms? If baptism is “work” for you - the person being baptized - then how is prayer, as I described it, not work?
You need to rethink your theology. The hypocritical stand of Protestantism - that baptism is a work but prayer is not, that sacraments are works but committing yourself to Christ is not - simply makes no sense. What makes much more sense is the simple and clear idea that the work is all God’s. We do nothing in the sacraments but cooperate with God by making ourselves more open to HIS WORK IN US. Again, as I’ve said before, and you have assiduously avoided commenting on probably because you know it destroys your argument, God saves no one against his own will. No one is forced into heaven. Nobody.
Knowing that is true - and I think you believe that as well - then it must be true that we must want to be saved in order to be saved. And God, having constructed us with a desire to know Him and to be saved, built in us the need and the capacity to render ourselves more open to Him through prayer, fasting, and avoiding sin. That’s not working for salvation. That’s blotting out noise to more clearly hear and see God in our lives. Doing such things makes God’s will for us more understandable and allows us to be more open to God’s gifts of grace.
If you believe otherwise, then you are wasting your time praying...or fasting...or avoiding sin. You are wasting your time because you - according to your own standard - are working for your salvation (which would not only be ineffective, but would be hypocritical to say the least). God’s gifts are freely given. But we must be open to them. God saves no one against his will.
Will you post again to me without dealing with more than 80% or what I say? Notice, I deal with every paragraph you write. It’s easy - because I cooperate with God. You find this hard - as you admitted - and you’re not even dealing with most of what I write because you are resisting God. How sad.
We do nothing in the sacraments but cooperate with God by making ourselves more open to HIS WORK IN US.
Like I said, cooperate is not a bible word...The word is labor...You took verses that say labor and twist them into saying cooperate...WE DO NOT COOPERATE...
You are not a cooperator with God any more than Mary is a co-redeemer...
Cooperate is a weak word...It suggests that you do as you are told, or you share in an operation...
1Co 3:9 For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
And this in no way applies to receiving our salvation...In that process, God is the sole 'operator'...We do not labor...We do not co-operate...We do nothing but believe...
It's easy to see that your Catholic word cooperate covers a lot of area and is meant to deceive...You showed us cooperate means to labor...But yet in the course of receiving Jesus as your Saviour, it merely means to believe, if that conversation surfaces...Otherwise it means to labor; to take the Eucharist, or baptism, or,,,...
In one spot you use cooperate to mean labor...In another, you use it to mean faith...
But just so some will understand, God made it clear:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
The operation is strictly from God...He didn't ask for a cooperator...
And NO, Christians don't cooperate with God for their salvation...They REPENT, turn to God...
And after, they labor with HIM...
Did you ever Repent??? Did God do the WORK in you or do you help Him by cooperating???