Posted on 12/30/2008 8:43:49 PM PST by GonzoII
What this passage does is, it tells you that the entire communion of saints, and not Our Lady alone, is the Church Triumphant whose prayers we receive every day.
Yes, but speaking only for myself, I think it is better to educate them than to change my spiritual practices to become more acceptable to those who don't share my beliefs.
Make sense?
First, as regards Mary being "worshiped" I will repeat what I said on post #9: If any Catholics are worshiping the Virgin Mary, they've got a problem. We do highly honor her though.
Secondly, as regards Mary being "prayed to", with the word "pray" being understood in the context of "requesting" or "interceding", the Scriptures say in James 5:16 "For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much." I don't think anyone would doubt that the Blessed Virgin Mary was just.
Thirdly, as regards Mary "interceding," we do see in Scripture that she does, in John 2:3,4; "And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye." NB the confidence she has that her "prayer" or "request" will be heeded, she doesn't even wait for an answer from our Lord but confidently tells the waiters "Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye." From this verse we Catholics get our confidence in her intercession.
Finally, as regards the Virgin Mary being referred to as the "Mother of God", the Scriptures tell us indeed she is, in Luke Ch. 1 Elizabeth under the influence of the Holy Spirit proclaims it; Lk 1: 41-43 "And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
Likely you believe in intercessory prayer. What is lost, again, in Protestantism is the original true meaning of the Communion of Saints.
It is evident that some Catholics are ignorant of the meaning of worship in the Bible. The word that gets translated into the English word “worship” is the word “shachah” which means quite simply...
“to bow down, prostrate oneself as before a superior in homage.”
Catholics do indeed do that physically and spiritually to Mary and to man-made images of Mary.
You will get all kinds of word dances to attempt to appease their mind that they aren’t in violation of Scripture, and they will support that with writtings that came after Scripture, but you are wise to adhere to Scripture.
Mary must have been very old. God is the Alpha and the Omega.
Could you please explain what is evil about that?
Here is the definition of HOMAGE from Webster's Third New International Unabridged Dictionary:
HOMAGE a reverential regard : RESPECT, DEFERENCE (the homage that matter pays to spirit— Clive Bell); especially : respect shown by external action : OBEISANCE (then the homage of T peers; and again the air was lively with the trumpets and drums— Hector Bolitho) see HONOR
A serviceman does no less when he salutes an officer.
After all we see it done in Scripture:
Deut. 5:9 - God's command, "you shall not bow down to them" means "do not worship them." But not all bowing is worship. Here God's command is connected to false worship.
Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.
Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.
Gen. 24:52 - Abraham's servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.
Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.
Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.
1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.
1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.
2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.
1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.
1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.
2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.
Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.
Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God.
Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God's Holy Temple.
Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.
Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.
1 Macc. 4:40,55 - Judas and the faithful fell face down to the ground to praise heaven and worship God.
2 Macc. 10:4,26; 13:12 - Maccabeus and his followers fall down prostrate praying to God.
From Scripture Catholic
“....the Scriptures say in James 5:16 “For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.” I don’t think anyone would doubt that the Blessed Virgin Mary was just.”
James is advising Christians to pray to God here for other Christians, nothing about Mary praying or being prayed to.
“Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.” From this verse we Catholics get our confidence in her intercession.”
At John 14:6 Jesus said no one came to the Father except through him, and in vs. 13 that whatever we request in his name he will do it. No Mary involved. So it is Jesus that makes intercession not Mary.
“filled with the Holy Ghost” and “And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
Luke 1:67 says Zechariah was “filled with the Holy Ghost” also. “Mother of my Lord” is not “Mother of God” even as the term “Lord” is applied to both God and Jesus. And many others.
“First, as regards Mary being “worshiped” I will repeat what I said on post #9: If any Catholics are worshiping the Virgin Mary, they’ve got a problem. We do highly honor her though.”
When does “highly honor” become “worship”? Mary is described by Catholics as being in “heaven where she is queen, reigning over heaven and earth.”
Refering to Gen. 3, “There mention is made of the “Second Eve”, through whom will be effected the redeemed restoration of all mankind”
“ toward the close of the Marian Year (1954), on Dec. 8, the pope declared the doctrine of the Universal Queenship of Mary....”. and “..she is Co-Redemptrix....”
(from The Catholic Encyclopedia 1987 ed. Robert C. Broderick, Editor)
Matt. 20:28 says that Jesus gave his soul as a ransom or redemption for many, Mary not involved as “Co-Redemptrix”.
But the Bible does mention “the queen of heaven” in Jeremiah 7:18 as a false goddess the apostate Israeltes were sacrificing to and worshipping.
But when he chose to become flesh and dwell among us he needed a body, and he got that from his mother whom he created:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman.
And as the Holy Spirit proclaims in Luke through Elizabeth, this woman is the Mother of God:
Lk 1: 41-43 "And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
The only thing evident here is the bitter recriminations of one for whom “grace” is a dim recollection.
Praying FOR someone is not the same as praying TO someone.
In John 14:6 Jesus said he was the way and no one came to the Father except through him. And in vs. 14 that what we ask in his name he would do, not the saints.
So, why don’t you say she is the mother of the body that God created?
Is it the fault of the Roman Catholics that you misinterpret what they practice and teach?
When the Word became Flesh, he was borne by a Mother. That earned her the title of Theotokos.
Asking the Saints for the prayers is NOT praying TO them. It is no different that asking any of your loved ones to pray for you except you are affirming that they are alive in Christ when you call upon the Saints to pray FOR you.
Isn’t there a place where it says to worship the Creator instead of serving the creature of Creator? To Whom did Christ pray? Doesn’t He set the standard?
Excellent question!
You might want to read up on the Nestorian heresy. This issue was settled very early in Church history.
I don’t have to read any thing except my Bible. You are free to read anything you desire. Good luck with that. :0)
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