Posted on 12/25/2008 9:13:44 PM PST by restornu
In Joseph Smith's day some of the most prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom. Thomas Jefferson said:
I [Jefferson] am a real Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the preachers . . of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said or did.
They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man of which Jesus, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. . . . It is the speculations of crazy theologians which have made a Babel out of religion (Saul K. Padover, Thomas Jefferson on Democracy, 1939, pp. 122-123).
Writing to S. Hales in 1818, Jefferson wrote: "The truth is that Calvinism has introduced into the Christian religion more new absurdities than its leaders had purged it of old ones" (Ibid., p. 219).
On Jefferson's monument in Washington, D.C., is inscribed: "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." If his complete quotation were on the monument it would bring out the fact that Jefferson was speaking against the dergy of his day (Ibid., p. 119).
Benjamin Franklin, replying to a letter from Ezra Styles, president of Yale, said shortly before his death:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left it to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes (Carl Van Doren, Benjamin Franklin, 1941, p. 777).
The first great work expressing the deistic feeling in America was Thomas Paine's Age of Reason, considered to have generated the greatest stir of any book of its day. It made clear that Paine was not an atheist as some claimed, but a deist because of the tyranny and bigotry he found in the existing churches (Thomas Paine, Age of Reason, 1793, p. 287).
Speaking of the period in America between 1670 and 1830, renowned theologian Paul Tillich has said, "First among the educated classes, then increasingly in the mass of industrial workers, religion lost its 'immediacy,' and it ceased to offer an unquestioned sense of direction and relevance to human living" (Roland N. Stromberg, Religious Liberalism, 1954, p. 1).
Carlyle has said of the Colonial Period: "An age fallen languid and destitute of faith and terrified of skepticism" (Ibid., p. ix).
Of this time Carl L. Becker has said, "What we have to realize is that in those years God was on trial" (Ibid., p. 1).
On another occasion, Thomas Jefferson said:
The impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, have established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the earth (Peter H. Odegard, Religion and Politics, 1960, p. 110).
It is also true that in Colonial America only about 5 percent of the population belonged to any church and that those who did come to America for religious reasons did not come here initially to seek freedom of religion except for themselves. This is certainly an indictment against religion in Joseph Smith's day.
Peter Odegard also maintains this position:
Nowhere in the old world at the beginning of American colonization was there anything like religious toleration. . . . It is sad but not surprising to recall that even the religious dissenters who found refuge in America were, with notable exceptions, no more disposed toward toleration than the oppressors of the old world Obid., p. 9).
Historian William Warren Sweet says, "The rise of an intense anticlericalism was another cause of opposition to the churches." Further he relates: "The United States began as a free and independent nation with organized religion at a low ebb" (William Warren Sweet, Religion in the Development of American Culture, 1952, p. 92.).
Are you trying to freelance again?
I don't know where you got this from or who wrote it for you, but maybe you need to stick with simply being an echo, parroting the line as best you can...
It is funny that in the end, you could only find two founders who make your point (not really but its Christmas so Ill be generous). Defending Smith takes leaps that would be the envy of Evel Knievel, and sadly seem to under cut our nations greatness and that of its leaders.
That would let you fit right in, among our leftist universities and their leftist professors.
From reading this thread it shows that religious tolerance is only for those who are in lock step with the Traditon of Men and to that extreme are bo better than the far leftist!
They too only accept those who are in lock step with their brand!
Would you not say a true Christian strives to...
Col 3
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Gal 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
It seems many here have no interest why prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom, only that their traditional ox was gored, but is it the words and commandments that our Savior taught us to live by?
John 13:
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Maybe one should wonder why the founding fathers who were men of faith but many were not a member of the mainstream variety?
The mainstream was so possessive in those days they even fought amongst each other.
All other religion was excluded including Catholic who were just as much Christians as they were.
Creeds may say many wonderful things in them they also showed intolerance towards others who lived among them that honor the Lord according to the dictates of their own conscience.
The LDS have creeds but they use different terms for it which amount to the same thing. Ezra Taft Benson’s “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet” is an example of this.
***
The Church of Jesus Christ needs no creed but their is an Article of Faith which some think are creeds but it is very different from a creed.
Articles of Faith is what one adheres too.
A creed is the Church’s understanding of the meaning of Scripture.
LDS only have an Article of Faith no creeds.
Many of them were freemasons and slave owners.
We can see what the fruits of all of this is today!
A Few Declarations of Founding Fathers and Early Statesmen on Jesus, Christianity, and the Bible
(This list is by no means exhaustive; many other Founders could be included, and even with those who appear below, additional quotes could have been used.)
http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755
Given that Jefferson and Franklin were not Christians,
your article starts on a shaky foundation.
As a puff piece to try to make whacko Joseph Smith, treasure
seeker, occult practioner, philanderer, polygamous horndog, and cult founder seem “normal”, it falls short.
Huh.
I haven't seen such intolerance in this thread. Maybe I'll have to look through it again.
It seems many here have no interest why prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom, only that their traditional ox was gored, but is it the words and commandments that our Savior taught us to live by?
What creeds are those? Please refer. Thank you for listing some of them, but those are ones you seem to think well of, not ones you and apparently Joseph Smith haven't thought well of. Are you referring to things that Christians believe that are based in immutable Scripture instead of the Book of Mormon and the LDS doctrines tht have changed so much through the years?
From what I've seen, Bible believing Christians are quite tolerant, by and large, toward people who either do or do not believe what Jesus said about Himself and what the Holy Spirit inspired to be written about Him (that He is God Himself, revealed to man, also as a man, one in the Trinity).
Christians, however, tend to be intolerant of "a different Gospel" as the apostles strongly warned against. Personally, I pray that followers of Josepth Smith believe in Christ and His atonement and worship Him so truly that their other beliefs against the Word of God are not held against them.
Sometimes, some/many get angry with those who disagree with critically important and foundational truths about God and man. Christ, Paul, and the Johns did, too. But, hopefully, we follow the only begotten Christ's example and seek to save the lost and those who are falling into error, as the Word implores, instead of harboring any malice. Even so, that is uncomfortable stuff in some ways, to be sure.
“Articles of Faith is what one adheres too.
A creed is the Church’s understanding of the meaning of Scripture.
LDS only have an Article of Faith no creeds.”
When you’re in a hole, it’s best to stop digging. What one adheres to depends on your understanding of the meaning of Scripture.
From Wikipedia:
Within the Latter Day Saint movement, the Articles of Faith are a creed composed by Joseph Smith, Jr. as part of an 1842 letter sent to “Long” John Wentworth, editor of the Chicago Democrat. It is a concise listing of thirteen fundamental doctrines of Mormonism. Most Latter Day Saint denominations view the articles as an authoritative statement of basic theology. Some denominations, such as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, have adopted the articles as scripture (see Pearl of Great Price).
The full text (with some later alterations by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) is reproduced here:
1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3. We believe that through the [A]tonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that these ordinances1 [the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel]1 are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God[,] by “prophecy, and by the laying on of hands” by those who are in authority[,] to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the [P]rimitive [C]hurch, viz: [namely,] apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists[,] &c [and so forth].
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues[,] &c [and so forth].
8. We believe the [B]ible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that [H]e does now reveal, and we believe that [H]e will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the [K]ingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes[;] [t]hat Zion [(the New Jerusalem)] will be built upon this1 [the]1 [American]2 continent[;] [t]hat Christ will reign personally upon the earth[;] and[,] that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiac[al] glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our [own]1 conscience, and allow all men the same privilege[,] let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men [all men]; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul [—] “we believe all things[,] we hope all things,” we have endured many things[,] and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praise worthy [praiseworthy,] we seek after these things.
Note 1: additions and replacements made in 1902.
Note 2: added in 1851.
Let’s take the Apostles’ creed. There are slightly different versions but there are all close to the LCMS version found in Wikipedia
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Christian[13] Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.[14]
Both the Articles of Faith and the Apostles’ Creed state some of the important beliefs of the churches which hold to them. The LDS speak in prose (have creeds) even if they don’t realize or acknowledge this.
Wiki are you for real?
If you want to be removed from restornu's ping list, you could ask again politely. No one forced you to read it, Christmas Day or not. At least be polite Christ-like about your request.
A distinction without a difference. Creed is from the Latin word credo which means "I believe".
Saying that LDS does not have a set of creeds is fundamental dishonesty.
Those of us who are Christian, are, "in lock step with the traditions of men (A favorite slam at non-mormons by some posters here). Mormons consider themselves to be the only ones "blessed" with what they call "God's church" and are SO more well-informed as to God's wishes.
That gives them, from their high and mighty moral pinnacle (in their minds) the right to condemn those who know Joseph Smith to have been a charlatan, and to baptize the dead of the world into their number to "give them the chance at salvation"...the mormon way.
These are the same people that insists on comparing Mitt Romney to Ronald Reagan as a conservative.
Given that Jefferson and Franklin were not Christians,
your article starts on a shaky foundation.
***
...there you go excluding those who do not lock step with you!
The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible
http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755
Perhaps I missed something, but it seem to me that you are slightly antagonistic about this thread’s article.
Why should restornu have to DEFEND the posting to you or anyone else? If you don’t like it, don’t continue to read the comments. Find another thread, and try to be a little more Christ-like and less the Devil’s Advocate.
Just a suggestion. But the day after celebrating the Birth of Jesus seems like a poor time to be contentious.
Creeds are what help to keep us from falling into fatal error like Mormonism.
So, someone who honestly questions the posting of a contentious article against Christians on Christmas Day is the problem, for you?
No. The problem I’m having with YOU is that no matter what restornu says, you will find something in it to argue about.
It would seem to me that all you are doing is looking for something to argue about. I’m not impressed. Arguing religion and politics are futile, go-nowhere arguments that usually turn out to be “my side is better than your side, so THERE!”
If you think the article is contentious, take it up with the authors of the quotes.
As for restornu posting a “contentious” article, for someone who wants off the ping list, you seem to be enjoying yourself at the expense of other people. I’m happy for you. </sarc
Feel free to show me where I have lacked politeness or civility or been in any way un-Christlike.
That is a reprehensible thing to say, for which you should be ashamed.
I like you have no clue why you feel the need to defend something that really isn’t about Christianity but about creeds and stuff shirts!
Meaning some of the prominent Americans did not know how to deal with those who are so opinionated at the exclusion of others.
so it seems as always if the message is contrary to ones comfort zone, to attack the messenger instead of why they said, what they said.
In spite of the zealots the founders of our wonderful Constitution were Divinely Inspired the very fact they did not get caught up in creeds but were able to receive what God from heaven wanted for this nation.
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