Posted on 09/24/2008 4:03:51 PM PDT by NYer
Herein lies the difference between the traditional liturgical Protestants and other Protestants.
My epiphany occurred when I asked an Orthodox priest to show me where is Christ in genocidal Old Testament massacres calling for women and children to be diced to peces, and he told me I had to read more. At that point I realized they either don't know or they keep it a secret.
Herein lies the difference between the traditional liturgical Protestants and other Protestants.
Surprisingly this hymn--including the quoted verse, without alteration--is found in the 1988 United Methodist Hymnal and the 2006 ELCA hymnal Evangelical Lutheran Worship which most orthodox Lutherans despise or at best tolerate with thinly veiled contempt.
It would be interesting to learn the theological background to such inclusion. Could it be that someone just like it?
I would respectfully ask where Jesus or his apostles say we should ask or need those who have passed away to intercede for us?
It has to do with the Holiness of God. God cannot tolerate Sin. Mary as the God-bearer in Jesus had to be sinless in order to be in such close proximity to God Himself.
I've never heard this before and it isn't mentioned anywhere in the New Testament.
The holiness of God is precisely why we need Jesus so badly. Also, it doesn't sound as though Christ required that he have a perfect mother:
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.(Phillipians 2:5-11)
The genealogy of Jesus in Matthew 1 includes some notable sinners -- such as Rahab the protstitute and the situation with David and Uriah's wife. Obviously this is Joseph's side of the family, but I think it shows that Jesus did not come from a sinless line of folks.
Protestants are quite willing to admit that we are cleansed of our sins at baptism.
We are free from the penalty for our sins because we have trusted in Christ's atonement, but we are not going to be sinless until we are fully sanctified when we get to Heaven. Paul talks about his sinful nature all the time.
When we accept Christ's salvation, we are overjoyed that Christ has clothed us with His righteousness and covered over our sins. God sees His Son when He looks at us, and Christ's righteousness, not our own, is what saves us. Mary was and is indeed a very special and blessed woman. God found favor in her -- amazing. But her song in Luke 46 is meant to glorify only the Lord. I am not sure how it is honoring to Mary not to do the exact same thing and rejoice along with her, and worship the Lord in spirit and in truth.
St. 2 is a paraphrase of the Theotokion, "Hymn to the Mother of God" sung at the close of the choir office.
The capitalization are as they appear in this 1970 publication.
Amazing!
I didn’t think of it until about 2:00 p.m. today!
Sorry, I don’t owe any debt to the Catholic church. Your statement reminded me of the huge arrogance of the church I observed years before. If anything, they owe me for nearly destroying me, but through the grace of God I was able to survive and move beyond to salvation. I don’t owe the Catholic church anything. My gratitude goes to the Lord and Holy Spirit, who is the true living Word. And one way I’ll express my gratitude by serving the Body of Christ, which does include some members of the Catholic church.
I appreciate your attempt to explain, and the Word is good. And yes I ask others to pray for me, but I’m not going to pray for hours to saints asking them to intercede for me if I can’t ask them directly if they are no longer living on Earth. But I do know Jesus hears my prayers. So why would I pray to Mary to pray for me when she’s sleeping in Christ? I don’t believe she ascended into heaven or was free from original sin aside from the grace of God, that is not biblical. But as shown in the scripture you posted, yes she was sinless—redeemed—by the grace of God, in the same manner we all are. None of us are going to make it past judgement without the cleansing blood of the Savior.
I owe my allegience to the Lord who is the Word. And through the word I know that Jesus Christ is THE ONLY redeemer. I will never bow down or pray to Mary again, although I now understand her blessed role as obedient honorable servant who is now sleeping in Christ. The Lord has a special place for her, I know, but that does not mean we worship her. Yes her sins were washed away by the grace of God and the blood of Jesus, just as Christ did for all who are saved.
The focus belongs on Jesus the Savior, not on any one of his saints. I don’t know if this is typical, but every church I was involved with focused on Mary, even down to the name of the parish. No wonder so many bad things happened.
“I feel I should point out in the interests of fairness that what ViLaLuz said regarding “reading the Bible on your own” is actually quite common among “older” Catholics.”
I’m not that old, only 50—although to some that is OLD :), but what you describe was my experience up until I was kicked out in the 70s.
I can’t argue against people reading the Bible, because that is the right thing to do. The Holy Spirit is strong enough to ensure the Truth shines through to the body of Christ. Sometimes it takes a while for those of us who are slow, but as the Lord says, even a child can comprehend salvation. In fact I’ve seen that with my own eyes.
“And here is a Slavonic version Dostoino yest.”
I had forgotten how pretty it is in Slavonic. Thanks!
In Rev. 5:8, the prayers of the saints (in heaven and on earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)
Again in the Book of Revelations, 6:9-11, the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
I've never heard this before and it isn't mentioned anywhere in the New Testament.
Ezek. 44:2 prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary's perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus. In Luke 1:31,34, the angel tells Mary that you "will" conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, "How shall this be?" Mary's response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.
We are free from the penalty for our sins because we have trusted in Christ's atonement, but we are not going to be sinless until we are fully sanctified when we get to Heaven. Paul talks about his sinful nature all the time.
Baptism is salvific. Take a look at Acts 22:16. Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required. In fact, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.
Mary was and is indeed a very special and blessed woman. God found favor in her -- amazing. But her song in Luke 46 is meant to glorify only the Lord.
Indeed and rightfully so! Let's take another look, though at what I posted above.
Luke 1.28: The angel went to her and said, "Hail, you who are full of grace (Literally: you who have been and remain filled with Grace). The Lord is with you."
Grace in the New Testament is seen as the antidote to sin. (Rom 3:24, 5:15-17, 6:14 11:6) So being filled with Grace strongly implies sinlessness. And since Mary required the grace of redemption before her own birth, it is quite fitting that this happened at her conception. Is this a problem for God? No. Jesus is the perfect Redeemer. Therefore he must have redeemed one person perfectly. That person is Mary, having been redeemed by Jesus from Original Sin from the moment of her own conception.
We also see in Luke 1:28, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word kecharitomene. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.
That hymn verse was included in older, orthodox versions of the Lutheran hymnal (LCA and ALC, anyway—I don’t know about Missouri), not just the bogus “ELW”. But most Lutherans do not know that it is directed to the Holy Theotokos unless someone tells them.
As some former Missouri Lutheran pastors who converted to Orthodoxy point out, the Lutheran confessions collected in the Book of Concord contain much Orthodox material that is not generally accepted by Protestants. That includes calling Mary “Theotokos”. The BOC also says that the saints pray for us, and that prayers for the dead are not useless, among other things. However, Lutherans do not practice what the BOC says, but remain “protestant” in their practice. This is yet another clue that shows that Orthodoxy is our true home!!!!
However, late 19th and 20th century Roman Catholic apparitions of the Virgin Mary are very problematic for both Orthodox and Lutherans. That is especially true of Lourdes, “I am the immaculate conception.” I think that even the Pope of Rome is cracking down on the apparition site in “Bosnia”, which is so beloved by Croat nationalists.
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