Posted on 09/18/2008 11:29:05 AM PDT by Between the Lines
My question then is, if I learned that my grandparents are on their list because they were baptized after death, would I be able to demand that their names are removed?
If not, then the church must spend all of their time mining for the names of the dead. (An obvious conclusion!)
What is their answer when asked if they realize that there are potentially billions of names from ancient history that they are missing, because there is no way to gather the names of those anonymous people?
Are those ancient people unworthly of the Mormon gift of salvation?
Well your story certainly puts a real spin on the practise - got me in tears as I have 2 boys/men and I know how grateful I would be to the man who brought your son’s plight to the Father!
That’s one of those stories that you get to repeat to glorify God. I have my own about prayer and my eldest son.
My wife Julie was 7 months pregnant. The boy was squirming and wrigling in there all the time. She called me at work and told me that some 5 hours before she had fallen and that the baby had not moved since. I rushed home and got her off to hospital ASAP. When we got there they tried to find the foetal heartbeat but could not. I could see the doctor and nurse look at each other and there glance did not look good. They ran off to get a newer piece of equipment that was a little more sensitive. I had been reading about taking authority in prayer for my family so I prayed and pointed to my wife’s belly and told my boy to kick. Instantaneously and exactly at the point where I had my finger I saw a little foot kick out. Of course the doctors came back and found the heartbeat with both devices.
So even before baptism God recognises and will look after his own.
Mel
If entering the Catholic church is not possible after death, what purpose do prayers for the dead serve?
There have been a few misconceptions in this thread, not the least of which is that the priest who was himself involved in this accident, was an Anglican priest not a Catholic. He was also humbly offering a prayer of blessing for those who were injured (mortally or not), not necessarily performing Last Rites (or Anointing of the Sick).
Thank you. I missed her post at number 10.
OT
2 Maccabees 12:42-46. 41 Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. 42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. 43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, 44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
Ecclesiasticus 7:37. A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living, and restrain not grace from the dead.
Zacharias 9:11. 11 Thou also by the blood of thy testament hast sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit, wherein is no water.
Micheas 7:8-9. 8 Rejoice not, thou, my enemy, over me, because I am fallen: I shall arise, when I sit in darkness, the Lord is my light. 9 I will bear the wrath of the Lord, because I have sinned against him; until he judge my cause and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth into the light, I shall behold his justice.
...and was continued by the Christians in the New Testament
NT
Matthew 5:25-26. 25 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.
Matthew 12:32,36. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. 36 But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment.
1 Peter 3:18-19. 18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison
Apocalypse 21:27. 27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled
The above passages describe the belief of purgatory, a state of cleansing which one must undergo to enter into Heaven. Some endure purgatory on earth and go straight to Heaven when they die. Receiving the Sacraments before death can often mean the difference between Hell and Purgatory or Purgatory and Heaven for a Catholic. Saints in Heaven don't need our prayers and the souls in Hell cannot benefit. Therefore the prayers for the dead are for the souls in purgatory to help shorten their time of cleansing.
I read the NT passages you quoted literally, and I cannot divine from those words where you believe purgatory is being talked about.
Would you care to explain further? If not, I understand.
I need to leave FR now, but I will check back in the morning.
Thanks.
it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.
Matthew 12:32 speaks of a place in the afterlife where sins can be forgiven. That is not possible in hell and not necessary in heaven. That intermediate place is purgatory.
The passage from Peter describes people who are literally dead but alive in the spirit being in a place as spirits in prison. Again, purgatory.
The Apocalypse quote restates that nothing impure can enter Heaven. Since we are all sinners a place of cleansing or clearing of debts is necessary or we would never get there.
Someone would object to that?
Agreed. Just as the Mormons attempting to baptize a dead person into their church does little.
Yep, but in both these cases (giving last rites or baptizing a dead person into the church) does it really make any difference to the dead person? No, of course it doesn't. Only living people get offended by it. The dead person doesn't even know it.
Either practice could offend family members who are not of that faith. I think it interesting that some on the thread can't seem to admit that. For some reason, they think it acceptable that a priest give last rites to someone who is not Catholic, but it is not okay for Mormons to baptise on behalf of the non-Mormon dead.
Really, if someone were to be offended, I'd think it would be more offensive to give last rites against the will of a still living person than to get baptised on behalf of a person who has already passed on.
Neither would offend me, because I don't believe either has any affect.
To answer your question directly, when Catholics "pray for the dead", they/we are praying for those who's bodies have ceased to function, but yet for reasons of hope, are believed to be "alive in Christ" insomuch as they didn't die with any mortal sin against them.
The "prayers for the dead" are to help them in the purification process of Purgatory. Some believe Purgatory to be painful as physical pain is for us now, others, believe it's a spiritual pain (pain of still not yet being in the full presence of the Lord) but either way, whichever really occurs the prayers of the faithful on Earth help ease the suffering of the souls in Purgatory. So that's what the prayers for the dead said at every Mass (and any other time) are for: to alleviate the suffering of their soul in Purgatory and/or to shorten their time there.
I'm not really sure there are Catholic priests that would have done what this Anglican did, as our "prayers for the dead" are not the same thing as the Sacrament of Last Rites, but I could be wrong (IOW, I'm not sure if Catholic priests would attempt to give Last Rites to a person who appeared to be dead). Again, I could be wrong. I'm just saying that though to make a clear distinction between the two concepts.
No. It doesn't have any effect on me, so why should I stress about it? At the verge of death, IF I were even conscious, I'd have other things on my mind than whether someone was conducting some fake religious practice.
It is interesting that you use the phrase "before you died." Would you agree that some religious practice done 'to' a person before they died, and against their will, would logically be more offensive than one done 'to' a person after they died?
I don’t know anything about the Mormon practice, so I can’t make an informed comparison.
Catholics do not baptize the dead, nor administer any Sacrament to the dead. However, there are two aspects to consider: first, when death seems likely or imminent; and second, after death.
The Last Rites, which generally include Confession for those who are able, Communion for the Dying (called “Viaticum”), and Anointing of the Sick, are for the living who have been baptized and who are thus able to request and receive these Sacraments. If it is unknown whether a person is already dead or perhaps moments away from death, a simple blessing might be used, which is what this priest apparently did. He would have had no way of knowing for sure whether their souls had departed from their bodies.
On the other hand, if the person is already dead, we can still pray for their soul. This is because, as the Church teaches, all believers — whether living on this earth, or departed -—are members of the Body of Christ, and thus have a living connection with each other.
We believe that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, and nothing separates us from the love of each other in Christ. We still love people and care for them and pray for them, and they still love us, care for us and pray for us. In other words, we have a communion with each other -— called the “Communion of Saints” -— which is not broken by death.
All of this is through Christ, with Him, and in Him. We love people forever, not just until they die.
In term of Biblical references, in 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 it says this:
“[After the battle, Judas Maccabeus] sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.
(For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead),
And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.”
This illustrates the practice of praying for the dead under the old law, which was then strictly observed by the Jews of the Maccabees’ time.
And of course, the Epistles of Paul are full of teachings that we are all living members of one Body, and that this spiritual relationship is stronger than death.
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