Posted on 09/18/2008 11:29:05 AM PDT by Between the Lines
Still in a daze from the crash, Donald Ashman walked over to the first body.
Ashman knelt down and lifted a corner of a white blanket covering the body, placed his hand on the man's forehead and said the words he had said so many times before, almost always at a hospital:
"May God Almighty have mercy upon thee, forgive thee thy sins and bring thee to everlasting life."
The prayer took just a few seconds. Ashman returned the blanket and turned to the next victim, not far from the mangled Metrolink train.
He didn't know their names, their ages, their stories. He knew only that they had died and that they had probably been heading home to their families, as he was, after the workday.
Reflecting on that day now, Ashman also knows, as surely as he has known anything in his 62 years, why he was on that train and why he survived.
He was there to administer their last rites.
"I was where God intended me to be," Ashman said in an interview Wednesday from his home in Thousand Oaks.
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
I would not be offended because I don't believe in either religious practice and know it wouldn't make any difference in my relationship with the Lord - it has no impact on me.
I don't really understand why someone would be offended, except perhaps they have a real hatred for the particular faith that is doing it.
Perhaps a better way to fame this debate would be to view it as a matter of respect.
Was Rev. Ashman disrespectful when he preformed last rites over those who died even though he did not know their beliefs or disbelief? NO, he had a genuine love and respect for those who were dead and dying and preformed a service that brought calm and comfort to the grieving and rescuers alike.
Are Mormons being disrespectful when they trace their genealogy and find their ancestors and and baptize them. NO, they have a love for those who came before them and only wish to see them go to heaven.
Are Mormons being disrespectful when they go through other church's records and pull random names to baptize into their faith? YES, in my mind this is merely grave robbing and they wish only to extend the rolls of their own church regardless of the wishes of the deceased or their families. It is this act that I believe we all find to be so reprehensible.
Note: I am neither Catholic nor Anglican and seldom do I post threads dealing with those outside of my own denomination because of the contention it creates. But I was so moved by this story that I felt compelled to post it. While our church does not believe in last rites, I would be thankful to God that he sent Rev. Ashman to pray over me or my family had we been in a similar situation.
Jewish people have been particularly insulted in the last few years, because the Mormon Church obtained name lists of many of the murdered Holocaust Jews and starting calling their names out in their ritual baptisms for the dead. The Jewish surviving families said they'd suffered enough from Gentile religions and didn't want their family names to be used in Mormon temples.
You can find information on the mormon baptism of Jews at this site
The Issue of The Mormon Baptisms of Jewish Holocaust Victims
I’m sorry, I have no clue what you are asking me. I have already explained the difference between saying a prayer over someone who has died (or is dying) and actually giving them membership in your church. If you cannot see the difference, I don’t know how I can help you. I think most people CAN see a difference.
susie
Have you abandoned the more general debate you began in post #5 while conceding nothing and changing your question?
I am willing to discuss your new question, but I am wondering if you are conceding that there are "any" differences.
There is a website called the "Do Not Baptize Registry":
From the site: "The Mormon Church (officially known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) takes it upon themselves to baptize everyone, that isn’t already a Mormon, into the Mormon faith after they die. They do this by physically baptizing a living person in the name of the deceased.
This site is for those that do not wish this service to be performed after they die. This site does not represent the Mormon Church so we cannot guarantee that those wishing that this service not be performed will have their desires granted. We are merely gathering a large list of names to submit to the Mormon Church to humbly ask that these baptisms not take place.
The Mormon Church has, somewhat reluctantly, granted this exemption to the Jewish Holocaust victims. We merely ask for the same exemption from having this service performed on our behalf."
At least a person can make this protest on behalf of themselves and their families, whether it's ignored by the mormons or not.
I don't consider it a new question, but you may if you wish. At any rate, what is your answer?
What difference does it make to the individual to whom either is done?
LOL Okay. Have a nice day.
I’d say the prayer he prayed was fine.
No, I'm quite sure he felt he was doing their soul some good. But then, so do the Mormons who baptise dead people into their church.
Are Mormons being disrespectful when they go through other church's records and pull random names to baptize into their faith?
I don't think it is disrespectful any more than giving last rites to random people who have been in an accident.
But tell me, what if a Muslim imam or a Shaman wanted to give you his blessings before you died? Would you find that offensive?
I wouldn't.
If I don't believe in it, then those "blessings" are meaningless.
Of course, if Islam, or Animism, is the true faith, then maybe I have been saved. If they are false, how do the blessings harm me?
If they are false, and you have believed so in your life, then it means nothing at all. It's all nonsense, mumbo-jumbo, and all that. It is your living family that could be offended, knowing that you would never have wanted such a thing. So perhaps some of the families of the train wreck victims would object to the priest's actions. It is up to them to say so, but none have.
Some people respect the will of the deceased. My father-in-law just passed away, his remains were buried instead of being cremated or harvested for organs out of respect for his will. He still exists. The memory of him matters. For all I know, it matters to him in eternity.
If the decision to follow the will of your parents after their deaths falls on your shoulders, will you see to it? If so, why? "What difference does it make?"
greyfoxx,
Thank you so much for this link! This has been something that has concerned me for years.
One would hope that the names submitted would be considered off-limits by the mormon church, however there will be claims that "only ancestors' and relatives' names are used. I haven't seen any limits described of just how far up the "relative" chain this may be....45th cousin thrice removed? G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-Grandchild?
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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment
Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”
Extreme Unction can be administered within a few hours of death. It depends on the priest. Some utilize a more strict timeframe than others.
If the person who has just died receives Last Rites and is Catholic, it means everything.
If the person who has just died receives Last Rites and is not Catholic, it means little, just words of prayer as the person meets his Maker.
Since said person is dead, it’s a little difficult to ask.
When the Mormons practice Baptism of the Dead, in their theology they are offering the deceased soul entrance into the Mormon Church (if I understand correctly). Prayers by a Catholic over a non-Catholic do no such thing. You cannot enter the Catholic Church after death. It’s too late.
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