Cardinal Egan Blasts Pelosi (in brilliantly scathing response) [Open]

CMR ^ | August 26, 2008 | Matthew Archbold

[NYer]

Wow! This is a brilliantly scathing response to Nancy Pelosi and her comments on Meet The Press Sunday concerning abortion. Here's the amazing statement in full.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: August 26, 2008

STATEMENT OF HIS EMINENCE, EDWARD CARDINAL EGAN CONCERNING REMARKS MADE BY THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Like many other citizens of this nation, I was shocked to learn that the Speaker of the House of Representatives of the United States of America would make the kind of statements that were made to Mr. Tom Brokaw of NBC-TV on Sunday, August 24, 2008. What the Speaker had to say about theologians and their positions regarding abortion was not only misinformed; it was also, and especially, utterly incredible in this day and age.

We are blessed in the 21st century with crystal-clear photographs and action films of the living realities within their pregnant mothers. No one with the slightest measure of integrity or honor could fail to know what these marvelous beings manifestly, clearly, and obviously are, as they smile and wave into the world outside the womb. In simplest terms, they are human beings with an inalienable right to live, a right that the Speaker of the House of Representatives is bound to defend at all costs for the most basic of ethical reasons. They are not parts of their mothers, and what they are depends not at all upon the opinions of theologians of any faith. Anyone who dares to defend that they may be legitimately killed because another human being “chooses” to do so or for any other equally ridiculous reason should not be providing leadership in a civilized democracy worthy of the name.

Edward Cardinal Egan

Archbishop of New York


August 26, 2008

Wow! Wow! Wow!

[netmilsmom]

Now since I found the right reference, as you know, anyone who has an abortion is excommunicated. Also accomplices who are not named in a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication but without whose assistance the violation of the law would not have been committed.

She isn’t promoting abortion so no one can get one.

[sitetest]

Dear netmilsmom,

“How do you think they haven’t?”

Simple - until one is shown to be excommunicated, it is reasonable to assume that one is not.

sitetest

[sitetest]

Dear netmilsmom,

“Also accomplices who are not named in a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication but without whose assistance the violation of the law would not have been committed.

“She isn’t promoting abortion so no one can get one.”

Not sure what you're saying here.

I'll ask again - how does one come to the conclusion that Ms. Pelosi - and other pro-abortion “Catholic” politicians - is/are excommunicated?

sitetest

[ELS]

Say the bishop does put forth such an order, and the local churches obey it. Pelosi then repents and receives absolution for her sin. How are the priests and laypersons who were ordered not to dispense communion to her to know of her repentance (confession is supposed to be private) and she is now allowed to receive the sacrament?

When a public person who has sinned publicly repents of their sin, it must be done publicly. Unless the Democrat party changes its platform, none of these national Dem politicians will be publicly renouncing their pro-abortion position (pro-abort Repubs are a different kettle of fish). They can rationalize away while here on earth, but if they do not have a spiritual conversion, they will have a very unpleasant meeting with their Maker (not to mention the rest of eternity).

[netmilsmom]

If you have an abortion, it’s a latae sententiae.
If you are a person without whom an abortion could not be obtained, you are also latae sententiae.

Without Nancy and her ilk, abortion would not be legal and hard to obtain. She is an “accomplice who is not named in the law because without her assistance the violation of the law (the abortion) would not be committed.”

[sitetest]

Dear netmilsmom,

“If you are a person without whom an abortion could not be obtained, you are also latae sententiae.”

No, that's not what the canon says.

What does it say precisely?

sitetest

[netmilsmom]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4W.HTM

This is the reference given for [14] here...
Latae sententiae is a Latin term used in the canon law of the Catholic Church meaning literally “given (laid down) sentence”.

Officially, a latae sententiae penalty follows automatically, by force of the law itself, when the law is contravened.[1] A latae sententiae penalty may be either one of excommunication, interdict, or suspension. Excommunication prohibits the exercise of certain baptismal rights, and may involve restrictions on participation in liturgical events and church governance, and the reception of church benefits.[2][3] An interdict involves the same liturgical restrictions as excommunication, but does not affect participation in church governance.[4] Suspension, which affects only members of the clergy, affects all or some acts of power of orders, governance, or functions attached to an office.[5]

In the code of Roman Catholic canon law currently in force, there are eight instances when a person may incur excommunication latae sententiae. Unless the excusing circumstances outlined in canons 1321-1330[6] are verified, the following persons incur excommunication latae sententiae:

an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic;[7]
a person who throws away the consecrated Eucharistic species or takes and retains them for a sacrilegious purpose;[8]
a person who uses physical force against the Pope;[9]
a priest who absolves an accomplice in a sin against the sixth commandment (the ban on adultery) except in danger of death;[10]
a bishop who ordains someone a bishop without a pontifical mandate, and the person who receives the ordination from him;[11]
a confessor who directly violates the sacramental seal of confession;[12]
a person who procures a completed abortion;[13] and
accomplices who are not named in a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication but without whose assistance the violation of the law would not have been committed.[14]
Various other persons incur excommunication latae sententiae by papal decree, including:

a person who violates the secrecy of a papal election, or who interferes with it by means such as simony;[15]
a woman who is ordained as a priest or a bishop who ordains a woman as a priest.[16]
Some instances in which one incurs interdict latae sententiae include the following:

using physical force against a bishop;[9]
attempting to preside at Eucharist, or giving sacramental absolution, when not a priest;[10]
falsely denouncing a confessor for soliciting a penitent to sin against the sixth commandment;[17] and
a perpetually professed religious who attempts marriage.[18]
If the ecclesiastical authority notices someone incurring what it considers a latae sententiae penalty, it may declare that the person has done so. However, the punishment is in effect since the perceived fault was committed, and the declaration simply aims to ascertain what the Church considers a fact.

A latae sententiae penalty differs from a ferendae sententiae (sentence to be made) one. If one commits an ecclesiastical offense for which a ferendae sententiae punishment is prescribed, the penalty will only take effect when imposed by the competent ecclesiastical authority.[1]

Note that latae sententiae is an adjectival phrase accompanying a noun, such as “excommunication”. In connection with a verb, the corresponding adverbial phrase is in ablative absolute form, as in: “He was excommunicated lata sententia.”

[bcsco]

I know they are apart from God. That goes without saying. It’s how it is handled by the Church that has befuddled me. And I’m unsure why you say her repentance must be public. Because her sin was public? That makes no sense. Repentance is between oneself and God. Why must it be a public spectacle? Also, why are Repub pro-choicers a “different kettle of fish”?

[ELS]

LOL! In our dreams. Although, given the recent momentum we may yet see it in our lifetimes.

[A.A. Cunningham]

Pelosi, being a self proclaimed ardent Catholic, knows good and well that, as an unrepentant proponent of infanticide, she is not to be receiving Communion and there is no question about that fact.

[A.A. Cunningham]

In addition, she's been called on the carpet before. You apparently haven't been paying attention

Published: February 1, 2007

A priest writes to Nancy Pelosi
“If you can kill a baby in the womb, Nancy, why not outside of it?”

Fr. John Malloy, pastor of Saints Peter and Paul Church in San Francisco, penned this “Open letter to Nancy Pelosi,” which was recently published in the parish bulletin. We reprint it here with Fr. Malloy’s permission.

Nancy, you are fooling yourself and I fear fooling many good Catholics. You are simply not in sync with the Catholic Church. Until you change your non-Catholic positions, you should stop calling yourself Catholic. Your record shows that you support embryonic stem cell research, Planned Parenthood, contraception, family planning funding, allowing minors to have an abortion without parental consent, and are against making it a crime to harm a fetus, etc. etc.

The fact that you favor married priests and women priests certainly would not classify you as conservative, but your answer to the question are you a conservative Catholic was:
“I think so. I was raised in a very strict upbringing in a Catholic home where we respected people, were observant, were practicing Catholics, and that the fundamental belief was that God gave us all a free will, and we were accountable for that, each of us. Each person had that accountability, so it wasn’t for us to make judgments about how people saw their responsibility and that it wasn’t for politicians to make decisions about how people led their personal lives; certainly, to a high moral standards, but when it got into decisions about privacy and all the rest, then that was something that individuals had to answer to God for, and not to politicians.”

That sounds fair and tolerant, but your record belies high moral standards.

The NARAL rates you 100% pro-abortion. Your statement: “To me it isn’t even a question. God has given us a free will. We’re all responsible for our actions. If you don’t want an abortion, you don’t believe in it, [then] don’t have one. But don’t tell somebody else what they can do in terms of honoring their responsibilities. My family is very pro-life. They’re not fanatics and they’re not activists. I think they’d like it if I were not so vocally pro-choice.”

Do we not elect politicians to make laws that help people honor their responsibilities, such as protecting life itself? Can politicians not tell someone else not to kill? If you can kill a baby in the womb, Nancy, why not outside of it? Oh wait, you are in favor of partial birth abortion, so-called because the baby sticks out of the “mother” about halfway, while the “doctor” sucks out the baby's brain. That seems comparable to the choice the Nazis made killing six million Jews.

Yes, Nancy, we (together with your pro-life family) would all like it if you were not so vocally pro-choice, i.e. pro-death. Until your choice is in line with Catholic doctrine, please, Nancy, do not receive the Eucharist when you attend Mass.

Rev. John Malloy, SDB
San Francisco, CA

© California Catholic Daily 2007. All Rights Reserved.

[getmeouttaPalmBeachCounty_FL]

It’s nice to see the Catholic leadership putting their foot down in the media about the unborn. It’s about time.

[Paved Paradise]

My only issue with the priest’s letter is that he says he fears she is “fooling many good Catholics.” I am not a Catholic, but I feel pretty confident in saying that Ms. Pelosi is hardly going to fool “good” Catholics who actually know what their Church teaches and follow its teachings.

Otherwise, good for him. He nails it right on the head.

[sitetest]

Dear netmilsmom,

I see in there that excommunication latae sententiae obtains for those who procure completed abortions. I am made to understand that this applies as well to those who give formal assistance to a specific case of a completed abortion.

But the first question is whether pro-abortion politicians are giving formal assistance to specific acts of completed abortion. It seems to me that one can argue that rather, they are making no obstacle to abortion, rather than that they are actively assisting in the act of abortion.

For those who also believe that the government should pay for abortions, the argument that they are not actively assisting in the procurement of abortion is weakened. But for folks who merely state that the government ought not prevent abortions, the answer to the question is much less clear.

The other difficulty is the distinction between proximate cooperation and remote cooperation. It's difficult to argue that pro-abortion politicians are giving proximate cooperation to individual completed abortions. And generally, I'd always been under the impression that severe penalties in Church law usually are not imposed for folks whose cooperation with evil is remote.

Not too long ago, some Mexican bishops excommunicated Mexican legislators for voting for pro-abortion laws in Mexico. Pope Benedict was initially quoted as approving of that action. That would strongly suggest that pro-abortion “Catholic” politicians ARE excommunicated latae sententiae. (We should remember that the bishops who were claiming that these politicians were excommunicated were not affording the politicians any canonical due process - thus, any excommunication would have to be latae sententiae).

Yet, a day or so later, the official word from the Vatican was that that was not what Pope Benedict actually meant.

I think that there are other potential grounds to claim that pro-abortion “Catholic” politicians are excommunicated latae sententiae. But these other grounds, much as your suggested grounds, are speculative.

Even Archbishop Burke and other relative “hardliners” haven't suggested that these folks are excommunicated latae sententiae (at least as far as I'm aware), only that they should not be admitted to Holy Communion. And indeed, that is what then-Cardinal Ratzinger said in his letter to the American bishops in 2004 - that pro-abort politicians should be excluded from the Blessed Sacrament - NOT that they are excommunicated latae sententiae.

I think that it would be better for us to stay on the firmer ground of asserting that these politicians should be denied the Blessed Sacrament. I think the question of excommunication latae sententiae is an open question, and not within the competence of any of us here.

sitetest

[netmilsmom]

I am not a Vatican lawyer. I believe that those who openly condone and have a hand in keeping abortion legal do excommunicate themselves.

You see it differently and until some action is taken, we really don’t know the answer.

[chimera]

Thank you all for this discussion. I have learned a lot.

Poster ELS brought up the concept of a public repentance for a an elected official who grievously sins in a public manner. I can see where that would be appropriate in a case like this where there is the potential for leading large numbers of people astray, and allow them the chance to see a real-life example of repentance and redemption. Can you cite any Cannon Law or Encyclical that addresses this issue? There is the Scriptural basis for the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confessing our sins to each other) that I suppose could be extended to the public realm if appropriate, but I'm wondering if there are other references?

[ELS]

Her pro-abortion stance is widely known. A staunch, obstinate and public supporter of abortion is not to receive Holy Communion. She is in a state of (public) mortal sin. In order to right the wrong that she has committed it must be made widely known that she has changed her ways. If her conversion is not made public, then many faithful will be scandalized by seeing her receive Holy Communion when they believe/know her to advocate a position opposed to the Church's teaching.

Of course, there is the private reconciliation between her and God. This must happen before the public renunciation of her pro-abortion position.

[Salvation]

And other bishops -- even Pope Benedict!

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[A.A. Cunningham]

I don’t think the church is a she...is she?

"Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church." Ephesians 5:23-32

[sitetest]

Dear netmilsmom,

“I am not a Vatican lawyer.”

Me, neither.

“I believe that those who openly condone and have a hand in keeping abortion legal do excommunicate themselves.”

First, we're Catholic. It doesn't matter what we think or believe. What is true is objectively true whether we believe it or not. What is false is objectively false whether we believe it or not.

Second, are you saying that anyone who merely condones abortion is excommunicated latae sententiae, or only those who condone AND “have a hand in keeping abortion legal”?

I'm pretty sure that lay Catholics who privately hold the opinion that abortion should be legal are not excommunicated latae sententiae.

“You see it differently...”

It's not that I see it differently. I can make the case either way, to the limits of my limited knowledge and ability. It's just that it is a question, as you admit, that HAS NOT BEEN CLEARLY ANSWERED.

And thus, it's just prudence to only go so far as we have knowledge to go. We know that the ground is firm to state that these politicians should not be permitted to receive the Blessed Sacrament.

That's what we should stick to until folks with the appropriate ecclesial authority say otherwise.

sitetest