Posted on 08/13/2008 9:45:56 AM PDT by Pyro7480
...Like it or not, discourse among a great many Traditionalists is filled with anger and contempt for Catholics who do not share their... interest in traditional forms of piety.
So while I've never seen a Clown Mass, I have encountered lots of angry Trads who have compared the Paul VI rite to a Black Mass, made clear that "Novus Ordo types" are second class Catholics... and generally made their claims to be the Guardians of True Catholicism so repellent that I wouldn't touch the Faith with a barge pole if they were the True Apostles of it they claim to be. And that experience is not just mine....
In much the same way that I think Muslims need to stop whining about how people perceive Islam and focus instead on why so many people have such similar perceptions, so too I think not a few Traditionalist Catholics should focus more energy on changing whatever it is in their sub-sector of the Church that leaves so many of us with such a bad taste in our mouths.
When the outsider's principal experience of Traditionalism is of repeated and frequent encounters with mean people who are perpetually angry... he is not going to feel any obligation or interest whatsoever in "understanding the things we care about." Telling outsiders to Traditionalism that they need to overlook their experience and stop talking about what they have actually seen and heard will be about as successful as Muslim attempts to force people to not notice the less-than-lovely face that the Religion of Peace shows the world.
Is clinging to anger more important to Traditionalists than actually winning hearts and minds to their cause? If so, then their agenda is doomed and they have paradoxically abandoned the worship of God in the name of liturgical purity.
(Excerpt) Read more at insidecatholic.com ...
I don't believe for a minute that he has met "lots of" these angry people. And Muslims? G'wan! I never heard of even a sedevacantist who wanted to cut anybody's head off.
He's exaggerating for effect, and failing to distinguish between those who (like me) prefer things the old-fashioned way and those who deny the authority of the Church and even the Pope himself.
Like I said up thread, there's another name for folks like that -- Protestants!
In my old parish, our confessionals were turned into storage closets.
I have to give a plug here. My favorite Priest just returned to Nigeria. Now if you wanted to hear fire and brimstone, Father Norbert was your man.
He preached at our 6:30pm mass and offended many a person, stating that living together, contreception and homosexuality were pure evil to a congregation that included many visitors (who never heard this stuff)
One of the first sermons I heard him preach was on standing up for Jesus. After 30 minutes of a rousing homily, he looked at us and said, “Stand up. Stand up for Jesus!” then he lowered his voice and added, “Otherwise you will be saying ‘Allah Akbar.’”
Mouths dropped and from that moment, I loved that man.
If anyone has a few prayers for Fr. Norbert and his family members he is returning to, pass them his way. We need more like him.
The lady you're describing is a sedevacantist schismatic (and that term may or may not describe the chapel she attends, but it's certainly irregular at best).
Their ecclesiology isn't exactly like the LDS. They don't think the True Church disappeared for a time and had to be "restored". They think that they're the True Church, and are in continuity with the Church pre-Vatican II, but that the visible "reigns of power" in Rome have subsequently been usurped by people who aren't real Catholics.
Logically, they ought to go further and elect an anti-Pope (and some have done exactly that), because otherwise they're put in the rather odd situation of believing that the Papacy as an office was divinely instituted. but has now sort of disappeared, or gone on an indefinite hiatus.
Mark is a convert from evangelicalism, a Catholic apologist, and a writer. (Also a friend of mine. :-))
and why is he so mad at traditional Catholics?
There's a certain subset of traditional Catholics, some of whom are de jure inside the Church (and some of whom aren't), who are more "traditional" than charitable. I would read his remarks as applying to them, not to the vast majority of Catholics who would think of themselves as "traditional Catholics" (of which I am one).
I believe this is the kind of priest I would admire!
and it is just like dealing with Liberals in everyday society
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That is where we trust in God and don’t expect it to be done on our time but His.
His exaggerations and his comparison of traditionalists to Muslims are highly offensive.
And I'm just a retread Episcopalian with a liking for Latin, not a die-hard traditionalist in any sense of the word. I attend a quite normal (if also quite orthodox) Ordinary Rite parish in a suburb of Atlanta. We throw in a little Latin from time to time and have very traditional music, but this is no nest of sedevacantists.
So if it offends me it's way too strong and he has missed his target completely.
I have encountered Traditionalists who are angry loons.
I was once invited to a conference given by a traditionalist priest in the home of a friend of mine. I knew several of the people there because we attended the TLM together. It turned out the priest had recently struck up a working relationship (for lack of a better term) with the SSPX. When a couple who had lost their daughter to SSPX (she ceased contact with them because they were NOT SSPX) and I gently tried to explain what we knew about SSPX from personal experience he denounced me - in front of the 30 people assembled there including a number of my friends - as a tool of the Devil. He ranted and raved. To tell you the truth I wasn’t horrified like my friends were for me. I thought the whole thing was actually rather funny. Again, my friends were horrified. The host apologized over and over again. I tried to talk to the priest when we took a break but he just went off on me again. I couldn’t help but laugh.
The host told me a year later that the priest - who is a relatively well known author among traditionalists - had told him to tell me I was right about SSPX. He had learned the truth that, although there are many fine people and priests in SSPX, there is a terrible problem with the SSPX itself.
Yeah, I’m a Traditionalist, and yeah, I know there are some bitter, angry, crazy Traditionalists out there. Look at the wackos who follow “Pius XIII”! Sheesh!
Tough to know what Jeremiah would focus on right now. We all think we are Jeremiah I guess. But tack of trying to eliminate all passionate voices as ‘angry’ is another leftist ploy to reduce us all to pablum for the socialist chewing.
You’re #27 is on target!
You’re = your.
But they are in a distinct minority, and not to be confused with folks who have tried the old ways and "hold fast to that which is good."
This sort of blanket condemnation of anybody who likes to hear the Extraordinary Rite occasionally does no good, and much harm.
My Grammar Policeman must have been asleep - I didn’t even notice the apostrophe til you pointed it out!
There are certainly two kinds of traditionalists. The last year’s Motu Proprio was a good litmus test: some cheered it and asked for more; others reacted angrily. www.traditio.com, for example, printed a photo of the Pope with devil horns in response.
Also, the author did not compare them to Muslims in terms of opposition to Christianity; he said that when enough of one’s own kind project anger, the entire image suffers, and gave the misfortune of the moderate Muslims having an image problem as an example.
Yes, it is, but so are devil’s horns photoshopped on Benedict XVI or blasphemous references to the Novus Ordo Mass — not the liturgical abuse, mind you, but the Mass itself. I have seen both.
I think he’d do better recognizing the positive contribution that SSPX made to the traditionalist cause, but for a short polemical article I think he has a point.
I agree. I love the TLM and know it has been a wonderful thing for me.
“That’s true, but I’ve also know some liberal Catholics to be worse! Nothing traditional allowed. Tabernacle off to the side, handholding, laity using the orans, no mention of Mary, no devotionals. AND something is wrong with you if you want ANYTHING traditional. Sheesh”
That’s what we have here. Mention anything — anything at all — and you get the same reaction you would at for coming out against abortion at a NARAL convention.
And I’m talking about the priests, too. The bishop just reinstated another molester priest in a parish.
I’m so sorry.
If you’re ever around southeast MI, I can take you to my parish. You would love it.
Mark Shea...yawn.
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