Would a how-to guide be helpful?
Posted on 08/03/2008 11:01:07 AM PDT by NYer
"Truth has always bothered people and is never comfortable."
Cardinal Ratzinger, October 9, 2000
7. Holy Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit will be with His Church forever, John 14:16-17.
8. Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit will teach His Church all truth over time, John 16:12-13.
9. Common sense and Holy Scripture tell us that the Holy Spirit could not be teaching and guiding any church other than the one which Jesus Christ founded. This is simply because truth is one and those sects not founded by the Lord all have opposing viewpoints between one another. Except for the existence of GOD, every doctrine taught by one, is denied by another. Their teaching is based solely upon personal opinions, which have no bearing whatsoever on doctrinal truth.
GOD does not care about man's personal opinions, but only for doctrinal truth:
"They came and said to him, "Teacher, we know that you are a truthful man and that you are not concerned with anyone's opinion. You do not regard a person's status but teach the way of GOD in accordance with the truth.""
Mark 12:14, Matthew 22:16
Saint Peter emphasized the rejection of personal opinion when he answered the high priest with,
"We must obey God rather than men."
Acts 5:29
The facts speak for themselves, leaving no room for opposing personal opinions:
"I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment."
1Corinthians 1:10
How can tens of thousands of individual sects with millions of members, fail to understand that
very clear and simple verse?
Here is another one on the same theme, also ignored by so many:
"So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any incentive of love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind."
Philippians 2:1-2. See Philippians 1:27 also.
It stands to reason that if all of those various sects taught the same thing, then there would be only one church, just as Holy Scripture demands.
"And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd"
John 10:16
"And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you."
John 14:16-17. See also Acts 20:28.
What does whom the world cannot receive mean? To whom did Jesus speak these words? It is clear that the Holy Spirit is guiding the one Church which Jesus Christ founded.
10. Holy Scripture tells us that there will be factions within the one Church of GOD.
"For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."
1Corinthians 11:18-19
The fact that factions (sects) are present, causes those with the light of truth to shine forth apart from those who are in error. Those who are of the one Church which Jesus Christ founded have that light of truth.
11. Holy Scripture tells us that the only Church which Jesus Christ founded will be subject to Christ and to Him alone. Scripture does not say His Church is subject to man. That makes it a theocracy governed by a hierarchy. The rule comes from the top down and not from the bottom up as in a democracy. How many sects are controlled by the collective will of the people? In the Church which Jesus Christ founded, if 99% of the people wanted something changed, it would not, and could not be changed unless it was by the will of GOD.
Acts 5:29, Ephesians 5:24-25,29, Colossians 1:18
12. Scripture tells us that His Church will last forever, Ephesians 3:21, and Matthew 28:20.
Why then do some say it apostatized at some time or another, and yet they cannot state the time, nor the place, nor provide any authentic documented "proof" of this so-called apostasy?
13. Holy Scripture tells us that it is the Church and not the Bible which is the
pillar and foundation of truth. 1Timothy 3:15. See Ephesians 3:10 also.
Why then do some say it is the Bible and not the Church? Where does it say that in Scripture?
14. Holy Scripture tells us that Christ's Church was given the commission of guarding that truth,
"...guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us."
2Timothy 1:14
Did the truth go unguarded for 1500 years until Martin Luther came along?
15. Holy Scripture tells us that Apostolic tradition will be handed down from generation to generation. 2Thessalonians 2:15
16. Holy Scripture tells us that the Church which Jesus Christ founded is the final authority on earth. Matthew 18:15-18
17. Holy Scripture tells us that the true Church will hold to no private interpretation of Holy Scripture. Acts 8:26-35, 2Peter 1:20-21
18. Holy Scripture tells us that the true Church must be found all over the world,
Malachi 1:11, Matthew 28:19, Acts 1:8
19. Holy Scripture tells us that the true Church will offer sacrifice, a clean oblation, every day in every place, Malachi 1:11. A clean oblation could not possibly mean the bloody animal sacrifices of the Old Testament, but the Holy Eucharistic sacrifice as Jesus commanded when He said,
"This is my body, which is being given for you; do this in remembrance of me", Luke 22:19.
Which of the tens of thousands of sects offer sacrifice every day, or every week, or monthly, or quarterly, or yearly, or not at all? Scripture clearly says to offer a clean oblation every day.
"Give us this day our daily bread."
Matthew 6:11
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
John 6:51
Which, if any, of the thousands of sects abide by these Words of GOD? The true Church which Jesus Christ founded does.
20. It is the Church which Jesus Christ founded that gave the world the Bible.
21. Common sense, history, and Holy Scripture, tell us that there are over 135 well-grounded facts which point to the one true Church which Jesus Christ founded, and to none other.
22. Where is the authority? Holy Scripture is silent when a person searches it for the verse which gives him or her the authority to found yet another church other than the one which Jesus Christ founded. No one can simply hold up a Bible and say "This is my authority", if they cannot find the verse which authorizes them to make that statement. The lack of Biblical authority coupled with Psalms 127:1, negates every church on earth, save one, the only one founded by GOD.
Here is where Jesus gave authority to His one and only Church.
"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."
Luke 10:16
"Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.""
John 20:20-23, also see Matthew 16:18-19, 18:15-18, 28:18-20.
23. Holy Scripture tells us that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. However, heretics, from within and from without, of all sorts, have been trying to bring it down for almost 2000 years
(Galatians 1:13, Philippians 3:6), and all have failed. None of them realized that the reason for their failure is because His Church is protected by Jesus Christ Himself, who is the Savior of His Body, Ephesians 5:23, Acts 5:38-39.
Isn’t the knee-jerk defense of the Borgias amazing?
Also, when the article makes a provocative distinction such as the one here, the poster should expect the distinction to be addressed albeit without antagonism.
Oops.
now talking about............
As always, thank you for your shepherding.
Notice that when you point out that the Holy Spirit defended the Church from the Borgias, you are accused of defending the Borgias.
Shepherding? I wish. This is more like herding cats.
Would a how-to guide be helpful?
It is not missed on my part.
This is an “ecumenical” thread, antagonism is not allowed.
LOL. Cats with claws. 8~(
"The Church's teaching authority, vested in the bishops, as successors of the Apostles, under the Roman Pontiff, as successor of St. Peter."
That is not what Irenaeus is saying. He never mentions Peter as Pontiff or anyone as successor to Peter. What he says is that,
"The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric."
Peter and Paul appointed Linus as the first bishop of the church at Rome.
Irenaeus does not say that the bishops of the churches are the only teaching authority or the sole repositories of the Apostolic Tradition. It is the churches that are the repositories and the bishops are the shepherds.
“Since, therefore, the tradition from the apostles does thus exist in the Church, and is permanent among us, let us revert to the Scriptural proof furnished by those apostles who did also write the Gospel, in which they recorded the doctrine regarding God, pointing out that our Lord Jesus Christ is the truth, and that no lie is in Him".
"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life.”.
From Irenaeus: 2.2. But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. .
Tradition, originates from the apostles Tradition, preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches The heretics object to the tradition, that originates from the apostles, maintained by the presbyters, because the heretics have "discovered the unadulterated truth. (Sounds, specifically, like the theology of the restorationist -- but, generally, like those who subscribe that the truth was buried for 1,500 years until Luther came around and found a little, and Darby found some more, and ____ finally uncovered it all!!) .
No one has said that the Tradition did not start with the Apostles or that that Tradition is not the Truth. What we have said and Irenaeus confirms is that the Tradition that was taught orally has been reduced to writing in the form of the scriptures and given and preserved in the churches and they take precedence over tradition. .
“Since, therefore, the tradition from the apostles does thus exist in the Church, and is permanent among us, let us revert to the Scriptural proof furnished by those apostles who did also write the Gospel, in which they recorded the doctrine regarding God, pointing out that our Lord Jesus Christ is the truth, and that no lie is in Him.”
“For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?”
From Irenaeus (3.3.2): For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. .
Please note:
Irenaeus states, every Church should agree with this Church (the Church of Rome, established by +Peter and +Paul), on account of its preeminent authority. .
Irenaues also cites, apostolic tradition that has been maintained continuously....
There is a translation problem with your interpretation. The Greek original "potiorem principalitatem" translated into Latin, "Ad hanc enim ecclesiam propter potiorem principalitatem necesse est omnem convenire ecclesiam", has been translated by Catholic scholars as: "For to this Church, on account of more potent principality, it is necessary that every Church (that is, those who are on every side faithful) resort; in which Church ever, by those who are on every side, has been preserved that tradition which is from the apostles." (Berington and Kirk, vol. i. p. 252.) Here it is obvious that the faith was kept at Rome by those who visited there from all quarters. She just mirrored the orthodoxy of the churches, owing her orthodoxy to them. The greatness of Rome, that is, as the capital of the Empire (potiorem principalitatem), imparts to the local Church a superior dignity, even as compared with Lyons, or any other metro-political Church. Everybody visits Rome, therefore, you find there faithful witnesses from every side (from all the Churches); and their united testimony it is which preserves in Rome the pure apostolic traditions.
The translation from the editor of the American Series of Ante-Nicene Fathers is,
"On account of the chief magistracy [of the empire], the faithful from all parts, representing every Church, are obliged to resort to Rome, and there to come together; so that [it is the distinction of this Church that], in it, the tradition of the apostles has been preserved by Christians gathered together out of all the Churches." Taking the entire argument of our author with the context, then, it amounts to this: "We must ask, not for local, but universal, testimony. Now, in every Church founded by the apostles has been handed down their traditions; but, as it would be a tedious thing to collect them all, let this suffice. Take that Church (nearest at hand, and which is the only Apostolic Church of the West), the great and glorious Church at Rome, which was there founded by the two apostles Peter and Paul. In her have been preserved the traditions of all the Churches, because everybody is forced to go to the seat of empire: and therefore, by these representatives of the whole Catholic Church, the apostolic traditions have been all collected in Rome: and you have a synoptical view of all Churches in what is there preserved."
AMEN, Boagenes.
But there's no denying that the Borgia's ending up on the Holy Seat, so to speak, must have been a sign. The fact that this roughly coincided with the birth of the Reformation is not coincidence in my view. The Church slid into invention and error, in my view, and "the teachings of men" rather than the pure teaching of the Gospel, as Paul said.
The Church, today, is a fine institution by and by (now that they've made the effort to control their pedophile priest problem) but I don't accept it as the one and only church on earth, nor do I accept the Magesterium or that church teaching is equal to Scripture. That is all.
So, uh, how’d the Borgias get on the seat in the first place? You don’t think that wasn’t by God’s design? You don’t think there was a sign in that?
Coincidence? I think not. I trust the Lord. The Church became corrupt. Martin Luther was God's answer at that time to what the Church had become. The punishment on us all, so to speak, as Christians, was the resulting schism. That's my personal belief, and I think I'm entitled to it.
I don’t accept that the church is the whore of Babylon or that the current Pope is the anti-Christ. We don’t know what a fugure pope could be but I rather doubt he’ll be the anti-Christ. All of our churches have some type of heresy and hopefully we will all clean it up and begin to preach the Word as God intended.
I love my Catholic friends and brethren, and I especially love Pope Benedict XVI. I am always giving them a hard time (and vice-versa) about how Lutheranism is simply Catholicism without "all the stuff you guys made up".
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