Posted on 08/03/2008 11:01:07 AM PDT by NYer
"Truth has always bothered people and is never comfortable."
Cardinal Ratzinger, October 9, 2000
7. Holy Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit will be with His Church forever, John 14:16-17.
8. Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit will teach His Church all truth over time, John 16:12-13.
9. Common sense and Holy Scripture tell us that the Holy Spirit could not be teaching and guiding any church other than the one which Jesus Christ founded. This is simply because truth is one and those sects not founded by the Lord all have opposing viewpoints between one another. Except for the existence of GOD, every doctrine taught by one, is denied by another. Their teaching is based solely upon personal opinions, which have no bearing whatsoever on doctrinal truth.
GOD does not care about man's personal opinions, but only for doctrinal truth:
"They came and said to him, "Teacher, we know that you are a truthful man and that you are not concerned with anyone's opinion. You do not regard a person's status but teach the way of GOD in accordance with the truth.""
Mark 12:14, Matthew 22:16
Saint Peter emphasized the rejection of personal opinion when he answered the high priest with,
"We must obey God rather than men."
Acts 5:29
The facts speak for themselves, leaving no room for opposing personal opinions:
"I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment."
1Corinthians 1:10
How can tens of thousands of individual sects with millions of members, fail to understand that
very clear and simple verse?
Here is another one on the same theme, also ignored by so many:
"So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any incentive of love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind."
Philippians 2:1-2. See Philippians 1:27 also.
It stands to reason that if all of those various sects taught the same thing, then there would be only one church, just as Holy Scripture demands.
"And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd"
John 10:16
"And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you."
John 14:16-17. See also Acts 20:28.
What does whom the world cannot receive mean? To whom did Jesus speak these words? It is clear that the Holy Spirit is guiding the one Church which Jesus Christ founded.
10. Holy Scripture tells us that there will be factions within the one Church of GOD.
"For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."
1Corinthians 11:18-19
The fact that factions (sects) are present, causes those with the light of truth to shine forth apart from those who are in error. Those who are of the one Church which Jesus Christ founded have that light of truth.
11. Holy Scripture tells us that the only Church which Jesus Christ founded will be subject to Christ and to Him alone. Scripture does not say His Church is subject to man. That makes it a theocracy governed by a hierarchy. The rule comes from the top down and not from the bottom up as in a democracy. How many sects are controlled by the collective will of the people? In the Church which Jesus Christ founded, if 99% of the people wanted something changed, it would not, and could not be changed unless it was by the will of GOD.
Acts 5:29, Ephesians 5:24-25,29, Colossians 1:18
12. Scripture tells us that His Church will last forever, Ephesians 3:21, and Matthew 28:20.
Why then do some say it apostatized at some time or another, and yet they cannot state the time, nor the place, nor provide any authentic documented "proof" of this so-called apostasy?
13. Holy Scripture tells us that it is the Church and not the Bible which is the
pillar and foundation of truth. 1Timothy 3:15. See Ephesians 3:10 also.
Why then do some say it is the Bible and not the Church? Where does it say that in Scripture?
14. Holy Scripture tells us that Christ's Church was given the commission of guarding that truth,
"...guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us."
2Timothy 1:14
Did the truth go unguarded for 1500 years until Martin Luther came along?
15. Holy Scripture tells us that Apostolic tradition will be handed down from generation to generation. 2Thessalonians 2:15
16. Holy Scripture tells us that the Church which Jesus Christ founded is the final authority on earth. Matthew 18:15-18
17. Holy Scripture tells us that the true Church will hold to no private interpretation of Holy Scripture. Acts 8:26-35, 2Peter 1:20-21
18. Holy Scripture tells us that the true Church must be found all over the world,
Malachi 1:11, Matthew 28:19, Acts 1:8
19. Holy Scripture tells us that the true Church will offer sacrifice, a clean oblation, every day in every place, Malachi 1:11. A clean oblation could not possibly mean the bloody animal sacrifices of the Old Testament, but the Holy Eucharistic sacrifice as Jesus commanded when He said,
"This is my body, which is being given for you; do this in remembrance of me", Luke 22:19.
Which of the tens of thousands of sects offer sacrifice every day, or every week, or monthly, or quarterly, or yearly, or not at all? Scripture clearly says to offer a clean oblation every day.
"Give us this day our daily bread."
Matthew 6:11
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
John 6:51
Which, if any, of the thousands of sects abide by these Words of GOD? The true Church which Jesus Christ founded does.
20. It is the Church which Jesus Christ founded that gave the world the Bible.
21. Common sense, history, and Holy Scripture, tell us that there are over 135 well-grounded facts which point to the one true Church which Jesus Christ founded, and to none other.
22. Where is the authority? Holy Scripture is silent when a person searches it for the verse which gives him or her the authority to found yet another church other than the one which Jesus Christ founded. No one can simply hold up a Bible and say "This is my authority", if they cannot find the verse which authorizes them to make that statement. The lack of Biblical authority coupled with Psalms 127:1, negates every church on earth, save one, the only one founded by GOD.
Here is where Jesus gave authority to His one and only Church.
"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."
Luke 10:16
"Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.""
John 20:20-23, also see Matthew 16:18-19, 18:15-18, 28:18-20.
23. Holy Scripture tells us that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. However, heretics, from within and from without, of all sorts, have been trying to bring it down for almost 2000 years
(Galatians 1:13, Philippians 3:6), and all have failed. None of them realized that the reason for their failure is because His Church is protected by Jesus Christ Himself, who is the Savior of His Body, Ephesians 5:23, Acts 5:38-39.
Ahhh, the beloved Irenaeus, Doctor of the Catholic Church and disciple of St. Polycarp. You are quoting him out of context. The spread of Gnosticism in Gaul led Irenaeus to make a careful study of its tenets, not an easy matter since each Gnostic teacher was inclined to introduce subtleties of his own. He was, Tertullian tells us, "a curious explorer of all kinds of learning," and the task interested him. His treatise Against the Heresies, in five books, sets forth fully the doctrines of the main dissident sects of the day and then contrasts them with the words of Scripture and the teachings of the Apostles, as preserved not only in sacred writings but by oral tradition in the churches which the Apostles founded. Above all, he cites the authoritative tradition of the Church of Rome, handed down from Peter and Paul through an unbroken succession of bishops.
The FLDS surely qualify!
I don’t dispute that the Catholic church believes there was no apostasy at about the time of the death of the apostles. That’s a belief of my religion. Given that, I was wondering how the Catholic church interprets 2 Thess. 2:1-3. Obviously, not the same as I do. Christians that don’t believe there ever was an original church would likely interpret it differently from both of us. I’m asking the question for understanding of the Catholic point of view.
Literally, thank God for the Catholic church! :-)
As the Brits would say “Brilliant ....absolutely brilliant!”
“Above all, he cites the authoritative tradition of the Church of Rome, handed down from Peter and Paul through an unbroken succession of bishops”
No Irenaeus also explains what he means by Apostolic tradition: It is the gospel.
Against Heresies, Book III:
Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question(12) among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?
2. To which course many nations of those barbarians who believe in Christ do assent, having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit, without paper or ink, and, carefully preserving the ancient tradition,(13) believing in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and all things therein, by means of Christ Jesus, the Son of God; who, because of His surpassing love towards His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin, He Himself uniting man through Himself to God, and having suffered under Pontius Pilate, and rising again, and having been received up in splendour, shall come in glory, the Saviour of those who are saved, and the Judge of those who are judged, and sending into eternal fire those who transform the truth, and despise His Father and His advent. Those who, in the absence of written documents,(14) have believed this faith, are barbarians, so far as regards our language; but as regards doctrine, manner, and tenor of life, they are, because of faith, very wise indeed; and they do please God, ordering their conversation in all righteousness, chastity, and wisdom. If any one were to preach to these men the inventions of the heretics, speaking to them in their own language, they would at once stop their ears, and flee as far off as possible, not enduring even to listen to the blasphemous address. Thus, by means of that ancient tradition of the apostles, they do not suffer their mind to conceive anything of the [doctrines suggested by the] portentous language of these teachers, among whom neither Church nor doctrine has ever been established.
I didn’t notice this was an ecumenical thread...
If my post is any more un-ecumenical that the original post which claims my (non Catholic) church/religion is man made and not from God, then please remove my post...
This is an "ecumenical" thread in the Religion Forum which means antagonism is not allowed on this thread.
I have asked protestants at least 100 times to show me a verse in the Bible that shows this and I have yet to get a single legitimate, intelligent response"
I am a Protestant.
Here are a couple of Bible verses that are rather clear about who is the pillar and foundation of truth:
John 8:32 (Jesus speaking): "If you hold to my teaching, you will really be my disciple. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
John 14:6 (Jesus speaking): "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
The best response is to refer you to the Bible!! ;-) Specifically, the footnotes. 2 Thessalonians
1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
What does this verse say is the pillar and foundation of truth?
Funny stuff, even if you didn’t mean it to be
The Enlightenment ALSO lead to the French Revolution, communism, socialism, Darwinism and a whole host of other things that I am certain that God does not look favorably upon. But I will agree that all of these ills have their genesis in the Reformation.
What does this verse say is the pillar and foundation of truth?"
I Timothy 3:15: "But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."
Doesn't it say that "the living God" is "the pillar and foundation of truth"??
I’m glad you I could amuse you.
Made up? Please be more specific. Martin Luther was God's judgment on the Church, in my view, and when the Church got off track and slipped into invention and legalism, God simply went around them - through the wit and wisdom he imparted to a German monk.
If this were so, then he would have succeeded in establishing only one church. Several years after he had started the reformation, Luther surveyed the damage that Sola Scriptura, and its accompanying individual interpretation of Holy Scripture, had done to his movement. Shards had splintered off from his Lutheran church, with Munzer going this way, Calvin going that way, Zwingli going another way, and with all scattering the flocks.
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters." Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23
Immediately the errors of Protestantism emerged, for who did the scattering? The damage of individual interpretation of Holy Scripture had taken its toll immediately. Luther sounded as if he lamented what he had started when he made the following remarks,
"This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet."
De Wette III, 61. quoted in O'Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.
Luther admitted that the Catholic Church was the true Church.
"Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church. We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them."
Sermon for the Sunday after Christ’s Ascension; John 15:26-16:4 (2nd sermon), page 265, paragraph 28, 1522.
The Bible can’t be cut and pasted and twisted to prove someone’s own personal opinion of theology and yet some people do it all the time.
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