Posted on 08/03/2008 11:01:07 AM PDT by NYer
Ahhh, the beloved Irenaeus, Doctor of the Catholic Church and disciple of St. Polycarp. You are quoting him out of context. The spread of Gnosticism in Gaul led Irenaeus to make a careful study of its tenets, not an easy matter since each Gnostic teacher was inclined to introduce subtleties of his own. He was, Tertullian tells us, "a curious explorer of all kinds of learning," and the task interested him. His treatise Against the Heresies, in five books, sets forth fully the doctrines of the main dissident sects of the day and then contrasts them with the words of Scripture and the teachings of the Apostles, as preserved not only in sacred writings but by oral tradition in the churches which the Apostles founded. Above all, he cites the authoritative tradition of the Church of Rome, handed down from Peter and Paul through an unbroken succession of bishops.
The FLDS surely qualify!
I don’t dispute that the Catholic church believes there was no apostasy at about the time of the death of the apostles. That’s a belief of my religion. Given that, I was wondering how the Catholic church interprets 2 Thess. 2:1-3. Obviously, not the same as I do. Christians that don’t believe there ever was an original church would likely interpret it differently from both of us. I’m asking the question for understanding of the Catholic point of view.
Literally, thank God for the Catholic church! :-)
As the Brits would say “Brilliant ....absolutely brilliant!”
“Above all, he cites the authoritative tradition of the Church of Rome, handed down from Peter and Paul through an unbroken succession of bishops”
No Irenaeus also explains what he means by Apostolic tradition: It is the gospel.
Against Heresies, Book III:
Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question(12) among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?
2. To which course many nations of those barbarians who believe in Christ do assent, having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit, without paper or ink, and, carefully preserving the ancient tradition,(13) believing in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and all things therein, by means of Christ Jesus, the Son of God; who, because of His surpassing love towards His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin, He Himself uniting man through Himself to God, and having suffered under Pontius Pilate, and rising again, and having been received up in splendour, shall come in glory, the Saviour of those who are saved, and the Judge of those who are judged, and sending into eternal fire those who transform the truth, and despise His Father and His advent. Those who, in the absence of written documents,(14) have believed this faith, are barbarians, so far as regards our language; but as regards doctrine, manner, and tenor of life, they are, because of faith, very wise indeed; and they do please God, ordering their conversation in all righteousness, chastity, and wisdom. If any one were to preach to these men the inventions of the heretics, speaking to them in their own language, they would at once stop their ears, and flee as far off as possible, not enduring even to listen to the blasphemous address. Thus, by means of that ancient tradition of the apostles, they do not suffer their mind to conceive anything of the [doctrines suggested by the] portentous language of these teachers, among whom neither Church nor doctrine has ever been established.
I didn’t notice this was an ecumenical thread...
If my post is any more un-ecumenical that the original post which claims my (non Catholic) church/religion is man made and not from God, then please remove my post...
This is an "ecumenical" thread in the Religion Forum which means antagonism is not allowed on this thread.
I have asked protestants at least 100 times to show me a verse in the Bible that shows this and I have yet to get a single legitimate, intelligent response"
I am a Protestant.
Here are a couple of Bible verses that are rather clear about who is the pillar and foundation of truth:
John 8:32 (Jesus speaking): "If you hold to my teaching, you will really be my disciple. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
John 14:6 (Jesus speaking): "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
The best response is to refer you to the Bible!! ;-) Specifically, the footnotes. 2 Thessalonians
1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
What does this verse say is the pillar and foundation of truth?
Funny stuff, even if you didn’t mean it to be
The Enlightenment ALSO lead to the French Revolution, communism, socialism, Darwinism and a whole host of other things that I am certain that God does not look favorably upon. But I will agree that all of these ills have their genesis in the Reformation.
What does this verse say is the pillar and foundation of truth?"
I Timothy 3:15: "But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."
Doesn't it say that "the living God" is "the pillar and foundation of truth"??
I’m glad you I could amuse you.
Made up? Please be more specific. Martin Luther was God's judgment on the Church, in my view, and when the Church got off track and slipped into invention and legalism, God simply went around them - through the wit and wisdom he imparted to a German monk.
If this were so, then he would have succeeded in establishing only one church. Several years after he had started the reformation, Luther surveyed the damage that Sola Scriptura, and its accompanying individual interpretation of Holy Scripture, had done to his movement. Shards had splintered off from his Lutheran church, with Munzer going this way, Calvin going that way, Zwingli going another way, and with all scattering the flocks.
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters." Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23
Immediately the errors of Protestantism emerged, for who did the scattering? The damage of individual interpretation of Holy Scripture had taken its toll immediately. Luther sounded as if he lamented what he had started when he made the following remarks,
"This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet."
De Wette III, 61. quoted in O'Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.
Luther admitted that the Catholic Church was the true Church.
"Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church. We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them."
Sermon for the Sunday after Christ’s Ascension; John 15:26-16:4 (2nd sermon), page 265, paragraph 28, 1522.
The Bible can’t be cut and pasted and twisted to prove someone’s own personal opinion of theology and yet some people do it all the time.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.