Posted on 08/03/2008 11:01:07 AM PDT by NYer
"Truth has always bothered people and is never comfortable."
Cardinal Ratzinger, October 9, 2000
7. Holy Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit will be with His Church forever, John 14:16-17.
8. Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit will teach His Church all truth over time, John 16:12-13.
9. Common sense and Holy Scripture tell us that the Holy Spirit could not be teaching and guiding any church other than the one which Jesus Christ founded. This is simply because truth is one and those sects not founded by the Lord all have opposing viewpoints between one another. Except for the existence of GOD, every doctrine taught by one, is denied by another. Their teaching is based solely upon personal opinions, which have no bearing whatsoever on doctrinal truth.
GOD does not care about man's personal opinions, but only for doctrinal truth:
"They came and said to him, "Teacher, we know that you are a truthful man and that you are not concerned with anyone's opinion. You do not regard a person's status but teach the way of GOD in accordance with the truth.""
Mark 12:14, Matthew 22:16
Saint Peter emphasized the rejection of personal opinion when he answered the high priest with,
"We must obey God rather than men."
Acts 5:29
The facts speak for themselves, leaving no room for opposing personal opinions:
"I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment."
1Corinthians 1:10
How can tens of thousands of individual sects with millions of members, fail to understand that
very clear and simple verse?
Here is another one on the same theme, also ignored by so many:
"So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any incentive of love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind."
Philippians 2:1-2. See Philippians 1:27 also.
It stands to reason that if all of those various sects taught the same thing, then there would be only one church, just as Holy Scripture demands.
"And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd"
John 10:16
"And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you."
John 14:16-17. See also Acts 20:28.
What does whom the world cannot receive mean? To whom did Jesus speak these words? It is clear that the Holy Spirit is guiding the one Church which Jesus Christ founded.
10. Holy Scripture tells us that there will be factions within the one Church of GOD.
"For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."
1Corinthians 11:18-19
The fact that factions (sects) are present, causes those with the light of truth to shine forth apart from those who are in error. Those who are of the one Church which Jesus Christ founded have that light of truth.
11. Holy Scripture tells us that the only Church which Jesus Christ founded will be subject to Christ and to Him alone. Scripture does not say His Church is subject to man. That makes it a theocracy governed by a hierarchy. The rule comes from the top down and not from the bottom up as in a democracy. How many sects are controlled by the collective will of the people? In the Church which Jesus Christ founded, if 99% of the people wanted something changed, it would not, and could not be changed unless it was by the will of GOD.
Acts 5:29, Ephesians 5:24-25,29, Colossians 1:18
12. Scripture tells us that His Church will last forever, Ephesians 3:21, and Matthew 28:20.
Why then do some say it apostatized at some time or another, and yet they cannot state the time, nor the place, nor provide any authentic documented "proof" of this so-called apostasy?
13. Holy Scripture tells us that it is the Church and not the Bible which is the
pillar and foundation of truth. 1Timothy 3:15. See Ephesians 3:10 also.
Why then do some say it is the Bible and not the Church? Where does it say that in Scripture?
14. Holy Scripture tells us that Christ's Church was given the commission of guarding that truth,
"...guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us."
2Timothy 1:14
Did the truth go unguarded for 1500 years until Martin Luther came along?
15. Holy Scripture tells us that Apostolic tradition will be handed down from generation to generation. 2Thessalonians 2:15
16. Holy Scripture tells us that the Church which Jesus Christ founded is the final authority on earth. Matthew 18:15-18
17. Holy Scripture tells us that the true Church will hold to no private interpretation of Holy Scripture. Acts 8:26-35, 2Peter 1:20-21
18. Holy Scripture tells us that the true Church must be found all over the world,
Malachi 1:11, Matthew 28:19, Acts 1:8
19. Holy Scripture tells us that the true Church will offer sacrifice, a clean oblation, every day in every place, Malachi 1:11. A clean oblation could not possibly mean the bloody animal sacrifices of the Old Testament, but the Holy Eucharistic sacrifice as Jesus commanded when He said,
"This is my body, which is being given for you; do this in remembrance of me", Luke 22:19.
Which of the tens of thousands of sects offer sacrifice every day, or every week, or monthly, or quarterly, or yearly, or not at all? Scripture clearly says to offer a clean oblation every day.
"Give us this day our daily bread."
Matthew 6:11
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
John 6:51
Which, if any, of the thousands of sects abide by these Words of GOD? The true Church which Jesus Christ founded does.
20. It is the Church which Jesus Christ founded that gave the world the Bible.
21. Common sense, history, and Holy Scripture, tell us that there are over 135 well-grounded facts which point to the one true Church which Jesus Christ founded, and to none other.
22. Where is the authority? Holy Scripture is silent when a person searches it for the verse which gives him or her the authority to found yet another church other than the one which Jesus Christ founded. No one can simply hold up a Bible and say "This is my authority", if they cannot find the verse which authorizes them to make that statement. The lack of Biblical authority coupled with Psalms 127:1, negates every church on earth, save one, the only one founded by GOD.
Here is where Jesus gave authority to His one and only Church.
"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."
Luke 10:16
"Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.""
John 20:20-23, also see Matthew 16:18-19, 18:15-18, 28:18-20.
23. Holy Scripture tells us that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. However, heretics, from within and from without, of all sorts, have been trying to bring it down for almost 2000 years
(Galatians 1:13, Philippians 3:6), and all have failed. None of them realized that the reason for their failure is because His Church is protected by Jesus Christ Himself, who is the Savior of His Body, Ephesians 5:23, Acts 5:38-39.
I love my Catholic friends and Freepers as well. Sometimes I think we ALL go over the top on our comments about each other’s beliefs. I believe our faiths have the core beliefs regarding Jesus, his life, death and resurrection. It’s the extra stuff, as you say, that messes it up. Blessings.
Rather, I said, None of what you've written decreases the argument from Irenaeus, supporting the requirement for a Magesterium (in fact, it validates the idea)
I will phrase it a little differently, in case there was some misunderstanding of what was intended to be said:
None of what you've written decreases the argument from +Irenaeus, supporting the requirement for a teaching authority, to define and clarify the meaning of the Scriptures (in fact, it validates the idea)
You continue, Irenaeus does not say that the bishops of the churches are the only teaching authority or the sole repositories of the Apostolic Tradition. It is the churches that are the repositories and the bishops are the shepherds.
I, for one, think that the references in Book III that we have discussed already are more than sufficient. I will, however, throw in one more for you to chew on:
8. True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God].IV.33.8
You then make the following statement:
There is a translation problem with your interpretation. The Greek original "potiorem principalitatem" translated into Latin, "Ad hanc enim ecclesiam propter potiorem principalitatem necesse est omnem convenire ecclesiam", has been translated by Catholic scholars as: "For to this Church, on account of more potent principality, it is necessary that every Church (that is, those who are on every side faithful) resort; in which Church ever, by those who are on every side, has been preserved that tradition which is from the apostles." (Berington and Kirk, vol. i. p. 252.) Here it is obvious that the faith was kept at Rome by those who visited there from all quarters. She just mirrored the orthodoxy of the churches, owing her orthodoxy to them. The greatness of Rome, that is, as the capital of the Empire (potiorem principalitatem), imparts to the local Church a superior dignity, even as compared with Lyons, or any other metro-political Church. Everybody visits Rome, therefore, you find there faithful witnesses from every side (from all the Churches); and their united testimony it is which preserves in Rome the pure apostolic traditions.
The note in Schaff says virtually the same thing:
The Latin text of this difficult but important clause is, “Ad hanc enim ecclesiam propter potiorem principalitatem necesse est omnem convenire ecclesiam.” Both the text and meaning have here given rise to much discussion. It is impossible to say with certainty of what words in the Greek original “potiorem principalitatem” may be the translation. We are far from sure that the rendering given above is correct, but we have been unable to think of anything better. [A most extraordinary confession. It would be hard to find a worse; but take the following from a candid Roman Catholic, which is better and more literal: “For to this Church, on account of more potent principality, it is necessary that every Church (that is, those who are on every side faithful) resort; in which Church ever, by those who are on every side, has been preserved that tradition which is from the apostles.” (Berington and Kirk, vol. i. p. 252.) Here it is obvious that the faith was kept at Rome, by those who resort there from all quarters. She was a mirror of the Catholic World, owing here orthodoxy to them; not the Sun, dispensing her own light to others, but the glass bringing their rays into a focus. See note at end of book iii.] A discussion of the subject may be seen in chap. xii. of Dr. Wordsworth’s St. Hippolytus and the Church of Rome.
I prefer the original statement to your version, as it candidly states, It is impossible to say with certainty of what words in the Greek original “potiorem principalitatem” may be the translation. We are far from sure that the rendering given above is correct, but we have been unable to think of anything better.
You then go to quote The translation from the editor of the American Series of Ante-Nicene Fathers is...
This was not the translation from the editor of the American Series. This was from an "Elucidation." It can be found here (caution: Catholics will not want to click on that page and read the entire editorial commentary on this section -- it will only anger the Catholic reader). This type of stuff was rampant in 19th Century Protestant scholarship. I will give them credit: for the most part, they clearly separated their scholarly work from their editorializing. But I've read far harsher editorializing than this. I won't quote the sections to which I refer, as they aren't appropriate for an "ecumenical thread."
One thing I would ask, though, is if you could indicate what is your work and what you've pasted in or paraphrased. While you did so on the second quote, the first paraphrase was without attribution (and the reader who was not familiar with Schaff might think that it was your own stuff).
Still there -- Smalcald Confession. I think Article XV (but I'm not going to bother looking it up)
Mind you, I don't know of a single Lutheran who personally confesses it. But it's still on both the WELS and LCMS websites in their doctrinal pages (I looked not long ago).
I love my Catholic friends and brethren, and I especially love Pope Benedict XVI. I am always giving them a hard time (and vice-versa) about how Lutheranism is simply Catholicism without "all the stuff you guys made up".
That's very kind...we Catholics need to drink more Guiness...so as not to be so humorless and Lutheran-like ;-) (please note the wink)
“One thing I would ask, though, is if you could indicate what is your work and what you’ve pasted in or paraphrased. While you did so on the second quote, the first paraphrase was without attribution (and the reader who was not familiar with Schaff might think that it was your own stuff).”
This was not a “cut and paste” from Schaff and the correct attributions are in the paragraph, “Berington and Kirk, vol. i. p. 252.)” and “See note at end of book iii.] A discussion of the subject may be seen in chap. xii. of Dr. Wordsworth’s St. Hippolytus and the Church of Rome”
“This was not the translation from the editor of the American Series.”
The editor says, “Sustaining these views by a few footnotes, I add (1) a literal rendering of my own,”
“IV.33.8”
I can’t find this citation or the quote in any of the works of Irenaeus.
Never said it was. I said it was a paraphrase. If it's not a paraphase, it's too similar for me to believe that it's a coincidence.
The editor says, “Sustaining these views by a few footnotes, I add (1) a literal rendering of my own,”
The "literal rendering of his own" was, “For it is necessary for every Church (that is to say, the faithful from all parts) to meet in this Church, on account of the superior magistracy; in which Church, by those who are from all places, the tradition of the apostles has been preserved.” What you quoted was "amplified" (if you've ever read the "Amplified Bible," you'll get the allusion).
I can’t find this citation or the quote in any of the works of Irenaeus.
there you go: Book IV, Chapter 33, paragraph 8.
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