Joseph Smith's First Vision: Fact or Fiction?

MRM ^ | Wesley Walters

[MHGinTN]

This is what Paul taught concerning Christians ... not the unsaved who will stand to be judged according to their lack of Him in them, these were Christians to whom Paul wrot e the following in his first letter to the Corinthian Believers:

I Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [Notice that Paul is here speaking of what is placed upon the foundation which is Salvation in Christ; what Paul is about to describe if the rewards review for the saved, not the great throne of Judgment]

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. [The fire burns up that which lacks the image of Christ in it, yet the believers shall be saved even as the metaphor of fire burning off the dross in an ore sample of Silver, leaving just the pure.]

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [God does not place Himself for judgment, so that which is the Temple of the Living God is not to be judged at the Great White Throne from whence hell will be the destiny of some in creation. ]

[MHGinTN]

Thought you folks might enjoy this thread and the discussion

[MHGinTN]

Meant to ping you gentlemen.

[MHGinTN]

By their fruits ye shall know them ...

Matthew 7: 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. prophets Deut 13:3, Jer 23:16, Rom 16:17, Eph 5:6, Col 2:8, 2nd Pet 2:1, 1st John 4:1 sheep's Micah 3:5, 2 Tim 3:5 wolves Acts 20:29

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Let's see, what were Joseph Smith's fruits:

Adultery with other men's wives

Peepstone divination

False Prophecies

Lies, even to his own congregation concerning his sexual deviances

False claims of scriptures from God

False stories of visions of God the Father Almighty

And entire false religion with rituals and signs lifted right out of Masonic lore

We could go on, but what's the point. The man is exposed by his fruits to be exactly what Jesus warned. And the founding principle of Mormonism is that the Holy Spirit left the body of faithing Christians for 1700+ years until Smith showed up ... thus mormonism denies the Holy Spirit Power that Jesus promised would never leave of forsake believers. So, the ultimate spirit of mormonism is the spirit of anitchrist. Oh they have a form of godliness, even look so clean and proper, but they deny the power thereof. 'From such turn away' was Paul's advice to Timotheus.

[ejonesie22]

You are right, it would be much better for us to turn our back on those who follow similar doctrines or better yet the same “prophet” and Scripture..

As I have said more than once, the desires of man and the work of the evil one have taken advantage thought the entirety of Christian, as well as man's history. It does not diminish the fact that we share the same fundamental message.

We do more than just “get together and play nice” we serve Christ together in love and fellowship, sharing the same message of salvation.

Sorry if that is inconvenient for your purposes...

[ejonesie22]

Some harvest..

[Stourme]

Your argument is with John and by association the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. They're right, you're wrong. Period. If you don't like it, write your own Bible. John says we'll be judged by our works and James explained why....get over it. /shrug
Revelation 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Titus 3:8
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

2 Corinthians 11:15
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Jonah 3:10
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Those whom the Deliverer has saved are in Him and He will not be standing for judgment at the great White throne.

Oh really?
Ecclesiastes 3:16 - 17
16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

The son of David says that the righteous and the wicked will be judged at the final judgment. You're batting 0 or 0. Stop contradicting the Bible and spreading false doctrine. Sheesh!

[MHGinTN]

Sadly, you missed the key to understanding of whom the passages speak: "12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God"

Recall, for your edification, whom Jesus referred to as 'let the dead go bury the dead'. Those whom the Son has saved, are alive in Christ, not dead in their tresspasses and sins. This isn't batting practice, son, it is your eternal destiny at stake. You will not gain salvation after all that you can do. He is the Savior, your efforts will never earn so great a gift as His Life accounted for you.

[MHGinTN]

You might find this assertion from the mormon an interesting insight into their mindset.

[MHGinTN]

Using a word search is not the best way to try and pretend to know the scriptures. Let's see if you actually comprehend what is written about in II Cor 11. Your word search turned up righteousness but you didn't comprehend the context!

II Cor 11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.

11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.

12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [Even you can see this is referring to false apostles!]

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. [Those are dead spirited beings being referred to. Read the passages again and see of what your word search can teach to you by reading further before and after the texts the search highlights.]

[ejonesie22]

We will leave the rewriting of the Bible to fit personal needs to your “prophet’

As far as the garce/works "debate" this is what I find so interesting. Your church is like a tone deaf musician, you can play the notes but can't make the music.

It is not by works we are saved, it is by our works we are known to be saved. Grace saves us period:

Ephesians 2:7-10

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

That seems pretty clear to me.

Because of our acceptance of God's gift of grace we do good works, not as a requirement for entrance into the kingdom, but because we want to share the joy and love. The Holy Spirit fills our souls and our love comes through in our actions. Yes, we will be known by our works, know as ones who truly accepted the gift so freely given among all of God's people.

James says it best...

James 2:14-18

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

[MHGinTN]

And from Titus 3 we see works and grace side-by-side, and the proper designation of each:

1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

...

14 And let our's also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful. [Paul teaches that there is a difference in fruitfulness and supposed works of righteousness. Good works bring fruitfulness AFTER THE PERSON IS IN CHRIST A NEW CREATION. Such a new creation will God in no wise stand before the same judgment seat where the dead in tresspasses and sins are to be judged according to their works.]

[Stourme]

You are right, it would be much better for us to turn our back on those who follow similar doctrines or better yet the same “prophet” and Scripture..

We do more than just “get together and play nice” we serve Christ together in love and fellowship, sharing the same message of salvation.

You share a message of salvation even though you don't agree with their doctrines

Isn't it ironic that you afford them that benefit of the doubt and yet deny me any such charity?

[MHGinTN]

Um, that is strawman post. You need to now show how it is that we deny you anything. In fact, I can find posts I’ve made to mormons in which I have said without reservation that 1)Salvation is in Christ’s purview, and 2) there will be many mormons in Heaven, but not because they earned Salvation but because of His tender mercy He has saved them (as taught in Titus 3 and many other places) ... and how or by what means He does this for them, I haven’t an assertion, but I have some ideas on it. We know for sure that those who work to promote the spirit of antichrist are working against His Kingdom though, don’t we! Denying the power of The Holy Spirit to indwell the faither is of the spirit of antichrist and is precisely what your church is promoting in their current ‘restoration’ drive. Watch for it in mormonism apologists’ posts. It comes out regularly.

[Stourme]

We will leave the rewriting of the Bible to fit personal needs to your “prophet’

As far as the garce/works "debate" this is what I find so interesting. Your church is like a tone deaf musician, you can play the notes but can't make the music.

Is it not possible for you to make a post to me that doesn't contain these juvenile derogatory digs? Can you not be civil for one moment?

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

It may pain you to admit it, but we are saying the same thing. We are saved by grace. Because we have faith and love for the savior we will do good works. We will be judged by our works because that is the manifestation of our faith.

[ejonesie22]

Indeed...

[Tennessee Nana]

If you don’t like it, write your own Bible
______________________________________

DUH...

That’s what this thread is about...

The false prophet Joseph Smith didnt like God’s requirement of righteousness to live a Godly life...

He wanted an excjuse to keep on committing adultery and cheating on Emma, his only legal wife..

and so he wrote his own porn, err I mean thingy...

I cant say Bible, there’s only ever going to be one of those...

The Old Testament and the New Testament...

[ejonesie22]

You don't believe in the same message as we do, indeed your Christ and God who was once a man, along with your multi factor path to salvation among other things, is a bit alien to Christians.

We may have liturgical and administrative differences but we share the exact same path to salvation and the same Christ. There is no "benefit of the doubt" because there is noting to doubt, we share the same message of God's Grace and the blessing of our various denominations authorities, not exactly the sign of warring factions...

[Zakeet]

By their fruits ye shall know them ...

Here's my list ...

A prophet who taught:

1. That Jesus and Satan are brothers, that God had incestuous relations with His daughter (Mary), and that Christian pastors are "dimwitted hirelings of Satan

2. That God is a polygamous celestial stud married to our Heavenly Mother

3. Of Kolob and of other worlds named Planet Oblish and Planet Enish-go-on-dosh ruled by a governing power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam

4. Of sacred scriptures based on pagan works such as prayers to Egyptian gods for dead spirits – which were supposedly translated using occult devices such as peep stones

5. Of prominent display of Satanic symbols such as pentagrams, baphomets, earth stones, and saturn stones on his churches' religious buildings and literature

6. Of the wearing a fig leaf apron in temple ceremonies to symbolize Satan’s power and priesthoods

7. Of having Lucifer teach Mormon church doctrine in the temple ceremony

8. Of portraying Satan as the god of this world in Mormon rites and ceremonies

9. Of offering prayers to the devil – Oh God, hear the words of my mouth

10. Of praising Satan by chanting Hebrew words in the temple ceremony whose translation is Marvelous Lucifer

11. That husbands can resurrect their wives from the grave

12. Of having special grips and clasps to tell ghosts from angels and the devil

13. Of practicing baptism for the dead

14. Of wearing magic underwear to protect from physical harm – with symbols so sacred that they must be cut out and buried and the garment burned when it wears out

15. That the Ten Lost Tribes and the apostle John will be discovered living in cement houses in a tropical land adjacent to the North Pole separated by a high mountain range

16. That men about six feet tall, dressed like Quakers, will be discovered dwelling on the moon where they live for about 1,000 years

17. That science will prove the earth has knobs on each end

18. That he was commanded by god to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors – eventually devising an Inspired Revision completed in 1833 - which was rejected by his church who still uses the King James Version

19. That his followers should burdened by a complex series of regulations which determine their progression as gods of their own planets - complete with a harem of goddess wives

20. That he was greater than Jesus

[ejonesie22]

First I only state fact. You tell my friend to go write his own bible, even though he is the one holding true to the Word of God, and this admonition comes from one who follows a man who made a good effort to create his own version of the holy book.

As for the rest, no we don't agree, you agree at this point, that will change when the perspective or argument does the same.

What I have found interesting in my study of mormonism is how utterly confused everything is. I have confined myself to works both of the faith and by your theologians, no "anti sites" unless I need a citation. Some say grace is enough in one breath, then jump to works in the next. They change emphasis trying to find contradiction with Orthodox Historic Christianity depending on the argument at the time..