Posted on 07/08/2008 8:50:51 AM PDT by CTrent1564
Not only would that be the end of talks with the Orthodox, I suspect that would be the end of talks with Catholic traditionalist groups like SSPX. Depending on how other Catholics would take it, I suspect it would likely be disastrous for the internal unity of the Catholic Church as well.
“You are surprised that Orthodoxy speaks and spoke with Anglicanism?”
Given that you assert that should the Catholic Church admit married bishops (not going to happen, but...) that that would be the end of reunion talks between Catholic and Orthodox, I am surprised that the nature of the discussions at many points encompassed discussions of possible intercommunion of one sort or other, and that on at least one occasion, such intercommunion was established.
“But there is still deep suspicion of Rome among Orthodox hierarchs, clergy and especially laity, much of which seems rooted in the total inability of Latins to understand how the Orthodox think, even in something a simple as not ‘worshiping’ our, or your, hierarchy and accepting whatever they say as ‘gospel’.”
That comment is beneath you, Kolokotronis.
“The sooner Rome and its hierarchs and clergy and laity accept that the Orthodox laity in the end will decide on reunion, not Patriarchs, the more likely a model for reunion will be found.”
Have no fear. There will not be any “reunion” between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox prior to the Second Coming.
sitetest
“That comment is beneath you, Kolokotronis.”
If I thought that I certainly wouldn’t have posted it.
” There will not be any “reunion” between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox prior to the Second Coming.”
I think you are right. From a mundane point of view, Orthodoxy has no need of it. From a spiritual point of view, of course we are directed to seek unity. The problem is, one side demands “submission”. Even if our hierarchs were ready for that, the laity aren’t and likely will never be. Its a road we’ve been down before.
“’That comment is beneath you, Kolokotronis.’
“If I thought that I certainly wouldn’t have posted it.”
Do you really believe that Catholics generally worship their hierarchs?
If you do, and if that view is common among Orthodox, I think we may have identified a primary obstacle to reunion.
sitetest
“Do you really believe that Catholics generally worship their hierarchs?”
In a manner of speaking, yes since its fair to say that when a bishop, especially the Bishop of Rome, says jump, the average Catholic, lay or cleric, jumps. When you bishops pursue destructive policies, social or spiritual, or become tyrannical, there is no uprising to depose the bishop or Pope. If ever there were a “pay, pray and obey, organization (with the usual lefty exceptions)its the RCC. We respect our hierarchs to the extent that they teach Orthodoxy and live Orthodox lives. When they don’t, or when they become tyrannical, they repent and change or we get rid of them...as we have on a number of occasions in living memory. The laity are the guardians of Orthodoxy, not the hierarchs.
“In a manner of speaking, yes since its fair to say that when a bishop, especially the Bishop of Rome, says jump, the average Catholic, lay or cleric, jumps.”
No, no dodging. The word “worship” has pretty specific meaning. As well, the use of the word against Catholics is frequent here, as in we “worship” Mary, or we “worship” saints, or we “worship” “graven images,” etc.
Now you have added the accusation that we worship our hierarchs.
If you'd like to say that Catholics are overly-deferential to our hierarchs, that's a different story. I don't think that it shows a real understanding of the Catholic mind, but that's okay, it's a far cry from “worship.”
The use of the word “worship” against Catholics, especially here on FR, is a special species of insult.
You've been here long enough to have seen how the word is used to abuse Catholics (and sometimes Orthodox).
If you don't mean “worship,” as in giving the form of honor meant only for God, then the comment is little more than a cheap shot.
sitetest
I agree with you — I’d be pretty miffed about married Bishops too — even married priests are stretching it. In any case, even if we don’t take the bishops, the laity are leaving the liberal groups and moving to the orthodox Church (small o :-P
“The use of the word “worship” against Catholics, especially here on FR, is a special species of insult.”
It is an insult. Its meant to be. The Roman Church is in a terrible mess because the laity haven’t risen up to straighten out the bishops, leaving it all to the “Vicar of Christ on Earth”. Pay, pray and obey. You see what its gotten you in the 1st world. That’s worship, s and because it is so very, very wrong, you are reaping what you have sown. You’ve gone way beyond being “overly deferential” when heretics like Mahoney and that character in Britain, Murphy O’Connor still sit on episcopal thrones.
I’ve met Msgr. Stetson. His office space at Our Lady of Walsingham, Houston is the same space as where the choir robes.
Nyer:
Perhaps you can ping this link as it relates to the original story that I posted. Seems another Catholic leaning Anglican Bishop, Rev. Barnes, has thoughts of Rome, as you can see by reading the link where he says “we believe our friens in the Roman Communion will do all they can to help us”
Anyway, for those of you who I have been in dialogue wiht, I directly pinged you on this one as well.
Regards
Not only by my prayers, I've got tons of Fortnum & Mason teas in the pantry just in case any Rome leaning Anglicans want to chat over a cuppa. (Although, I must confess most Texans discuss things over a cold brewski.)
“It is an insult. Its meant to be.”
Okay.
"Pay, pray and obey... That’s worship, s..."
Sounds like a Protestant definition.
Don't post to me again.
sitetest
******************
Dear sitetest,
I don't think I've ever seen a post of yours such as the one above. It seems most unlike you, a person for whom I have the greatest respect.
I hope you understand I am merely concerned about two people whose posts I look eagerly forward to here on the Religion Forum. I don't know how this situation came to be, but it is most unfortunate.
With kind regards,
trisham
******************
Dear Kolokotronis,
I am dismayed at the above. I have always found your posts to be among the most educational, the most reasoned here on the Religion Forum. I have looked to you as a fellow Catholic, and would never have thought to see this sentiment from you.
I hope that there can be a way for us to somehow get past this seeming rift.
trisham
Here is another link from the English Catholic Journal, “The Catholic Herald”. The Anglican Bishop, Rev. Andrew Burnham, has now taken out an article in the leading Catholic newspaper stating his desire to come into communion with Rome.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/articles/a0000323.shtml
Regards
I hope this is the first of many.
Please post this as a thread and let me know so I can ping it.
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