Something old, something new... [weddings: Mormon, Christian, Muslim, Hindu]

Christ’s Church is the body of believers. Christ is the final authority - the final priest.

What man-made, earthly organization could possible hold a candle to that?

I meet with other believers. We are Christian. The name of the denomination means nothing at all. I could be a member of the Church at Corinth, the Philadelphian Church, or a member of the body of worshippers at Thessolonica. I could attend weekly meetings at Lifeline Community, or Shadow Mountain, or Calvary Baptist, or Valley Assembly of God.

God knows the heart - He recognizes those who belong to him ... wherever they are. That is Church.

You belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Incorporated, but what matters is the heart and where you place authority. Is it in an earthly office, a title, a corporation? or is it in the final Priest, Jesus.

You didn't answer my question directly. But let me ask you this, if the heart is all that matters, why did He set up His church......w/ leaders, doctrines, ordinances & such? Why not just read the scriptures?

And if your assertion is that all Christian churches that believe in Him are His, then how come all the different beliefs? Some Christian churches have gay priesthood, some believe in works, some grace alone, some have women in the priesthood, some accept the importance of baptism, some not, & the list goes on & on. Why the scripture that not all that call Him Lord, Lord will be saved?

And if belief in Him was all that was necessary, then why was Paul called to Ephesus, Galatia, etc. to set those saints right on the doctrine that they were corrupting? Did he go there, look around, & say, you all believe in Christ, it's all good, carry on. Not hardly!

If denomination meant nothing, why were those who followed the Pharisees for example, encouraged to join His church? Could it be that there was more than just believing in Him? Reading the scriptures?

Christ set up ONE church, not several different ones w/ competing doctrines. Nowhere in the Bible does it say it wouldn't matter what church you belonged to. Quite the opposite in fact. So, w/ that being said, again, what answer did you receive as to which was His?

But let me ask you this, if the heart is all that matters, why did He set up His church......w/ leaders, doctrines, ordinances & such? Why not just read the scriptures?

Christ was establishing his Church among the nations. It is the way he chose.

And if your assertion is that all Christian churches that believe in Him are His

Wait a minute, I never said all Churches believe in Him, I said all Christians believe in Him, and only God knows who is His.

Christ set up ONE church, not several different ones w/ competing doctrines

You are correct, and Christ promised that it would stand - that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. You believe Christ's Church was taken from the earth. You believe it was corrupted and that it was returned through Joseph Smith. What you believe is not found in the Bible. It goes against the word of God. The Church of Christ is not an institution - it was never "lost," it didn't need to be restored. Christ's Church has been here since he established it - in the body of believers in Him.

While even demons believe in Him and shudder, what you must have is saving belief. You must believe that the atonement of Christ saved you from the penalties of your sin. If you do not have faith in the atonement and the resurrection of Christ, you are not one of His and you are not of His Church.

Look in your heart, brother. There is only one way to salvation - one narrow path. Do not place your faith in an istitution, don't put your trust in your own goodness. Do you have faith in Him, and Him alone? Then you are his.

Let me add this to you.

HEBREWS 7:25‑26

"He is able ... to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens."

HEBREWS 8:1

"Of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is seated on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens."

HEBREWS 9:12‑14

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

The Bible teaches that God has designated the shedding of blood (sacrificial death) as the atonement for sin (Heb. 9:22). Jesus Christ shed His blood on our behalf that God might be satisfied. Through placing our faith in Him, His perfect sacrifice covers all our sin.

HEBREWS 9:24

"Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."

HEBREWS 10:11‑12

"Every priest standeth daily ministering and offering often the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God."

The Purpose of Our High Priest

Jesus is now in the presence of God interceding for us. A Christian could never have any sins held against him, because Jesus is constantly interceding on our behalf. First John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." First John 2:1 says, "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." Because of Christ's intercession Paul could say, "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?" (Rom. 8:33). Who can accuse us of anything when Christ is interceding for us? Our Lord has accomplished what no other high priest could accomplish: He paid the penalty for our sin in full, and God is satisfied.

“Look in your heart, brother. There is only one way to salvation - one narrow path. Do not place your faith in an istitution, don’t put your trust in your own goodness. Do you have faith in Him, and Him alone? Then you are his.”

Very good post CC.

I would add one thing, since you are speaking to a follower
of mormonism. Your faith must be in Jesus Christ’s payment
for your sin - the Jesus of the Bible. You cannot change who
Jesus is, who God is and then put your faith in that made
up thing. Faith is only as good as the object it is placed
in. Mormonism teaches a false Jesus Christ and a false
gospel. False, meaning not the one in scripture.

I know you know this CC. But others read and we should make
it clear. Especially to those who are used to using the same
words, but making them mean different things.

best,
ampu

Jesus in His teaching says, “upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” What rock? Revelation.

Both the Protestant and Catholic versions must contend with the fact that other Biblical authors taught an inevitable apostasy. It would seem strange for such Biblical authors, including Peter, to teach something which Jesus here denies.

One must also notice that gates only prevail against something by keeping it out or by holding it in. It makes little sense for gates, which by nature keep inhabitants in or out of a place, to "prevail" by forcing something to enter is completely illogical. The Catholic and Protestant interpretations force an interpretation that isn't logical, namely, that gates prevail by forcing someone to enter or someone to leave. Gates, of course, serve no such function. Gates keep things in or out, but they do not force things to go in or to go out.

Prevail meaning to keep out

The word translated as "hell" in the KJV is actually Hades, the dwelling place of all departed spirits. For the gates of Hades to not prevail against them could mean that the gates would not be able to stop the church from entering therein. (By comparison, in The Gospel of Nicodemus the "gates" mentioned in Psalm 24 refer to the gates of Hades and the attempt made there to keep out Jesus in the period between his death and resurrection. [See The Gospel of Nicodemus, Part II, 6 in ANF 8:436-437.]) In other words, Christ’s Church, his disciples, would preach the gospel not only among the living, but also among the dead—not even the gates of Hades could keep them out.

In this context, Jesus gives Peter the sealing power to bind on earth and have it bound in heaven. For Latter-day Saints the word "bind" in Matthew 16:19 is synonymous with "seal." This passage has reference to priesthood authority to perform ordinances or sacraments, such as baptism, echoing the Shepherd of Hermas’ usage of the word "seal." When a baptism (seal) is performed vicariously for the dead by proper priesthood authority, the seal (baptism) is recognized in heaven. Thus, Joseph Smith explained, "there is a way to release the spirit of the dead; that is, by the power and authority of the Priesthood—by binding and loosing on earth."

As extreme as this interpretation may seem, this was not a foreign concept to early Christians. Clement of Alexandria (AD 160-215), among others, believed that the apostles of Christ preached the gospel to the departed spirits in Hades. "And it has been shown also…that the apostles, following the Lord, preached the Gospel to those in Hades. For it was requisite, in my opinion, that as here, so also there, the best of the disciples should be imitators of the master..."

Prevail meaning to keep in

Another interpretation is that "prevail" has reference to keeping inhabitants inside. In this thought, gates could only prevail against something that is already inside of them and not external to them. This interpretation would be that Christ was saying that His Church would soon be inside the gates of the spirit world alone because of apostasy on earth, but that the Church would later come out from the world of the dead and back to earth—that His Church would shortly be confined to the spirit world, held back by its gates, but that later, members of Christ's Ancient Church (such as Peter, James, and John) would come, by revelation, out from behind the gates of Hades to restore the gospel to the earth.

Both of the above readings are distinct possibilities. Both reconcile all the Biblical data.

Prevail meaning shut up against

A literal translation of the passage reads as follows:

"You are Peter or a small stone broken from a larger rock and upon the original larger rock I will establish my church and the gates of the world of spirts, or sheol, will not be shut up against my church or overpower the dead saints." Personal translation taken from Blueletter Bible and BYU Professor Wilf Griggs

In this context the passage could be Christ teaching that the spirits of the departed will have the chance to hear the gospel. This is supported by Peter's teaching about Christ's ministry to the world of spirits just prior to his ressurrection in 2 Peter 3:18-22

I think the Mormon approach to marriage has been very effective in preventing the wildly expensive, ostentatious displays that have become the norm for weddings in this country (as well as in many other countries, including Hindus, Muslims, etc). “Getting married” has become largely about the huge fairy-tale party day and associated financial irresponsibility. If only a handful of close relatives can be present, and not even all of those, rationality is more likely to reign. From what I understand, although Mormon temple sealings are usually followed by some sort of reception, the receptions are generally pretty restrained by mainstream standards. And since there’s a stigma attached to Mormon chapel weddings, I imagine the associated receptions would be even more restrained, especially since many couples would still be looking forward to their “real” wedding in the temple at some later date.

I heard last week that the average wedding in America now costs $28,000. The average. My niece was married last week, and I know the cost was nowhere near that much. Of course, the temple ceremony is free. She had a wedding luncheon for those who attended the ceremony, and the rest of the family. They had a reception that night. They got the place free because my brother works for the company that manages the properties. We helped with the flowers, I worked in the kitchen, slicing cheesecake and putting it on plates. My sister-in-law ordered the cheesecakes from Costco and sheetcakes from Costco with the colors of the wedding. We helped set up and clean up. My two nephews created the wedding invitations. It was a wonderful day. Note: Utah Mormon weddings are even different from everywhere else, it is cultural.

When I heard the price tag of an average wedding, I then did a bit of research. The emphasis is all on the wedding. Not much on the marriage. It costs $2500 to have a photo booth at the reception. It costs $1000 to create CDs of the couple's favorite music (to give away as gifts.) There's the gifts for all the people who come to the wedding. I found a site that will tell you the average price of a wedding in your area. Here's the one from Provo: In this area, 82% of couples spend less than the average wedding cost while 18% of couples spend more than the average.

OTOH, my cousin's daughter got married after living with her boyfriend for seven years. Their wedding cost over $40,000. It was at a vineyard in Northern California. It was fabulous, and they will spend the rest of their lives paying off the debt. (No one from my family went because my sister died a week or so before the wedding.) Anyway...

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