Posted on 06/30/2008 6:25:14 PM PDT by Utah Girl
Viewers of tonight's season premiere of "History Detectives" will learn that a book about the horrors of "Female Life Among the Mormons" is a work of fiction.
And the woman who owns the 1856 volume will be "disappointed" by that news.
"History Detectives" (8 p.m., Ch. 7) is a fascinating series in which historical objects are examined to determine if they're authentic. (Tonight's other two segments feature a World War II diary and a coin shot by Annie Oakley.)
In the case of the 1856 book about the horrors of Mormon polygamy, Marcie Waterman Murray of Stanfordville, N.Y., bought it at an auction and wants to know who wrote it. (There's no author listed.)
"I was very moved by this book. It really stayed with me a long time. I've become fascinated with it," Murray says.
What stayed with her is a barbaric account, written in the first person, of a young woman who married a Mormon elder in New York and traveled to Utah with Brigham Young. She suffered the "abominations" of polygamy and the "degradation it imposes on females."
That includes one account of a misbehaving wife who was stripped nude, tied to a tree and whipped until "blood ran to the ground."
Enter Tukufu Zuberi from "History Detectives."
"You don't know if this is a real book. You don't know if it's really from the 19th century. You don't know what it is," Zuberi said in a phone interview with the Deseret News. "But it is a document which definitely offers a skewed view toward marriage among Mormons.
"It puts (women) on the level of being slaves. You can take it as something that's either laughable, looking at it today, or something that really provided fuel for those who were anti-Mormon back in the 19th century."
Without detailing the entire episode, Zuberi quickly discovers that this is not a genuine history. Among other things, it purports to tell the story of Joseph Smith's death and gets it flat-out wrong.
And the show's conclusions are clear. "It seems that our book is little more than pulp fiction, and shot through with historical errors," Zuberi says in the show.
The segment briefly outlines 19th-century LDS history, including the effort to demonize Mormons.
"Someone could write it today in order to kind of speak badly of the Mormons," Zuberi said. "Someone could've written it then to speak badly of the Mormons. And that's our task — to find out."
He does his best to track down the author, including using "some high-tech stuff to determine who wrote the book and determine the authenticity or lack thereof."
"This one I was surprised by. The Mormon story has a lot of twists and turns."
In 21st-century Utah, "Female Life Among the Mormons" seems silly, even campy. But, obviously, the book's owner thought — perhaps hoped — it was genuine.
Upon learning that it's fiction, she gasps and says, "I'm actually a little disappointed. But I'm glad to know the truth."
But it certainly seemed as if she would've been more glad if Mormon women really had been tied to trees and whipped.
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.
Probably won't bother me much when I find out, so please tell me.
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As posted by an “anti”
(Name blocked out at request od poster)
To: XXXXXX
John Taylor (Mormonism’s 3rd President)
“We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense ...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century” (Journal of Discourses 6:167).
Maybe it’s just me, but that tends to sound a bit arrogant.....un-Christian.
+++
My reply.
After going to the source materal and reading what went before, what went after, and what went in the middle, I find that just taking these few words out of the whole, leads one to think it is saying something it is not saying. Did you know that ‘nonsense’ is the end of a sentence? Did you know ‘the devil’ is in the middle of the third sentence after ‘nonsense’.
Did you also know that President Taylor was talking about how THE MEMBERS OF THIS CHURCH, along with the rest of the world, were not being good Christians {But how can we teach others a lesson which we have not learned ourselves?
(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints’ Book Depot, 1854-1886], 6: 167.)}
Did you read the source materal, or did you just copy and past someone else’s misleading half truth?
+++
Now, since you were unable to access the reference, for yourself from the references given, here is the parts of the truth that were left out. There was a lie made and backed up by using part of the truth and leaving out other parts of the truth.
You can see the difference in the meaning of the whole verses the meaning assumed by using selective editing.
“We have first to learn submission to the will of God ourselves, through various trials, persecutions, and the development of our weaknesses and imperfections, and thereby learn to appreciate the goodness and blessings that flow from him. We must see that we ourselves first learn obedience, and then teach others. But how can we teach others a lesson which we have not learned ourselves?
There is not nation now that acknowledges that hand of God; there is not a king, potentate, nor ruler that acknowledges his jurisdiction. We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense. Men talk about civilization; but I do not want to say much about that, for I have seen enough of it. Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work that the Christianity of the nineteenth century.”
(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints’ Book Depot, 1854-1886], 6: 167.)
Did you know that in Genesis, the first chapter, this was said, “In the beginning God created . . . his own image”
What do you think it is as good as their creative editing?
+++++++++++++
You copied and pasted from CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY an article with almost a dozen references to LDS writings.
You used them with authority.
Did you check out the original source documents?
How about this one, I already gave the rest of the truth on this one (post 83 this thread) and showed how leaving out what came before is a good way to lie and mislead someone.
So compare the part from CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY
John Taylor said . . .
“We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense....Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century.”( Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 167 - 1858)
http://www.carm.org/lds/attack.htm
and compare it to the different meaning when the context is added.
“We have first to learn submission to the will of God ourselves, through various trials, persecutions, and the development of our weaknesses and imperfections, and thereby learn to appreciate the goodness and blessings that flow from him. We must see that we ourselves first learn obedience, and then teach others. But how can we teach others a lesson which we have not learned ourselves?
There is not nation now that acknowledges that hand of God; there is not a king, potentate, nor ruler that acknowledges his jurisdiction. We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense. Men talk about civilization; but I do not want to say much about that, for I have seen enough of it. Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work that the Christianity of the nineteenth century.”
(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints’ Book Depot, 1854-1886], 6: 167.)
^^^^^^^^
I for one, do not think you researched the original documents.
“A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ”. (”The Articles of Faith,” Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah. P. 182.)
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Did you read the large amount of evidences that Talmage gave to back up his statement. Even though his writing style is dated, he presents his case well.
What did you think of his writings?
And which addition did they use, I learned back in high school that it is an important part of a reference since page numbers often change with new publishings.
So, the pretense that Brother Joseph was trying to place himself next to Jesus is made up and not supported by the partially true evidence given.
Ok, lets examine the teaching on the subject
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true." -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]" -George Q. Cannon (quoted in the Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, 1988).
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again." -Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
“No salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth when he said that he stood in the presence of angels sent from the Lord, and obtained keys of authority, and the commandment to organize the Church of Jesus Christ once again on the earth, then this knowledge is of the most vital importance to the entire world. No man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of god. It is, therefore, the duty of every man to investigate that he may weigh this matter carefully and know the truth." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-1956], 1: 189.)
As we see then, the dots don't make a bit of difference - especially in light of the other statements that support Sky's presentation of the statement. And everyone else can see that the pretense that Brother Joseph was trying to place himself next to Jesus is made up and not supported by the partially true evidence given is in itself a misdirection and a falsehood. So who is exactly misleading who on this matter.
++++++++++++
well, let us see.
^^^As we see then, the dots don't make a bit of difference^^^
I understand that you just said it is ok to leave out important information that does not support your claim.
^^^especially in light of the other statements that support Sky's presentation of the statement.^^^
I do not understand how you could miss the references that speak against his position.
All these are from what you just posted.
“every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are...”
You pass by Joseph Smith BEFORE you come to Christ.
You know, before, not instead of.
“it will be through the authority he has received.”
If you study the parts left out, you will find Joseph received his authority from Christ, to help Christ.
You see, not only had the parts that counter the original posters have importance, the parts left out of your additional evedance is also important. It does not back up your claim.
What we have here is
Half knowledge proving that half knowledge is full knowledge.
“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]”
This says nothing about Joseph's authority replacing Christ's.
It just says he will be there.
Did you study this, or did you just post something someone else's writings because it pleased you, without looking up the original material
I realize you don't get it.
Christ provided a sinful world that is destined to Hell itself a way out.
That is what Christ to Pilate is the "Truth", and Pilate sarcastically said "What is truth?" and walked away.
37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." 38"What is truth?"
John 18: 378-38
Furthermore, His last commandment to those He loved was this:
19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Matthew 18: 19-20
That is why I do not simply "ignore" the false teaching of Mormonism, Scientology, Jehovah Witnesses, or any other false cult that is polluting and lying about the real message (the Gospel) that He died for.
The stakes are a bit high here. People are going to Hell.
Hope that helps you understand now.
Take care.
I said this in post #47:
Satan prowls the earth as a lion ready to devour, and the Evil One has false signals and signs everywhere. Jesus said so.
Let's see if that is Biblical:
"Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." 1 Peter 5:8
He also masquerades as an angel of light.
"Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." 2 Corinthians 11:14
Yup. So, what I posted is backed up. By the way, the Mormons also say they believe the Bible, in addition to the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. I point out what the Bible says that is in direct contrast to the other fictitious books for a specific reason.
You may have answered my question but I missed it somewhere. What is your faith again?
Thanks, you said it better than I could have.
“What is your faith again?”
If it’s not the “right” one will you attack me?
“hat is why I do not simply “ignore” the false teaching of Mormonism, Scientology, Jehovah Witnesses, or any other false cult that is polluting and lying about the real message (the Gospel) that He died for.”
You folks hate Catholics too, don’t you? You know, Pope conspiracies and all that. You can’t attack them here though, they are too well organized and outclass the fundamentalist argument to the point of ending the argument.
“The stakes are a bit high here. People are going to Hell.”
The thing about this is that you won’t know where you are going until you get there. I’m guessing some of you folks who have no problem tearing down other religions because you think you’ve got the “true path” might not find the folks you expect to find when you get where you are going.
The difference between you and the Mormons is that the Mormons evangelize - you denigrate. Your approach is simply mean. Evangelizing requires a positive message. You might try that on Mormons, JW’s, etc. rather than telling them they are going to hell.
I’m sorry I sound harsh, but as you say, the stakes are high. You must consider that you live in America and therefore have an obligation to not be intolerant religiously. You can do that and maintain your faith.
Why, what GOOD advice...why don't YOU follow it? I don't see anyone pinging you to the posts that you seem to find so offensive.
Simply pass up the opportunity to inflict YOUR prejudiced opinion on others, as you accuse others of doing.
Simple.
Ping to 94
Nope. I used to be one.
The difference between you and the Mormons is that the Mormons evangelize - you denigrate
Recruiting for their cult and spreading a false "Restored" gospel is a more apt description.
For the third time now, what is your faith again?
Well....actually I really "do" get it.
You are intolerant of many pointing out...that mormonism is a cult.
That's pretty plain.....
You pass by Joseph Smith BEFORE you come to Christ. You know, before, not instead of.
ROFLOL!!
And you guys wonder WHY Christians stand against mormonism????
I guess....in your mormon world..Christians won't be getting into the mansion. Wow....a mormon finally admitted that.
and
If you study the parts left out, you will find Joseph received his authority from Christ, to help Christ.
Whenever joey is placed 1st and must meet joey's standard 1st, it places Jesus in a secondary position and contradicts the bible. No where in any of those citations can one even come close to the concept of helping.
Did you study this, or did you just post something someone else's writings because it pleased you, without looking up the original material
The mormon church engages in deceit and dishonesty when it feels the need to protect its image, but complains when their deceit is made public. For another superb site on lying see Richard Packham’s excellent essay on Lying for the Lord http://packham.n4m.org/lying.htm)
Well, without reading the book and examining its provenance, it’s hard to say, but I am struck by the fact that these “experts” don’t seem to offer anything in the way of evidence. I was also struck that they began with the politically correct assumption that “Mormons don’t behave this way,” and went on from there. If you start with your conclusion already in hand, there’s usually a tendency to find evidence to support it.
Having said that, this does, indeed, sound like a work of fiction. But it irks me the way they say, basically, “I’m the expert, and I’m never wrong.”
Also, it’s not clear whether the woman who found the book is disappointed because she’s a bigot, or because she thought she had a rare and immensely valuable antique book, but instead was told that it’s a fake.
How old is the book? What kind of paper? What kind of thread was used for the binding? Were there any watermarks in the paper, linen or cotton or some mixture? Was it a very old fictional account, or a more recent one? The “experts” are silent.
Expert, Schexpert. And that doesn’t mean that I think that Mormons used to beat their wives, only that these sound like typical TV experts.
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