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To: FatherofFive
Unfortunately, this definition of ‘the church’ cannot be true, unless Christ is a liar.

Or, you don't have a clue what Jesus was talking about....

Jesus was talking to Jewish disciples...Not a Roman Catholic Gentile in the bunch...Jesus was speaking to individuals, not a Roman Catholic church...THAT is the context...

What about the rest of the chapter...It's all the same context...

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Does that verse describe YOU??? And the others that go along with it???

Here Christ says his Church will not be destroyed.

No He didn't...Jesus said the 'gates of Hell' would not prevail against it...

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15,/i>

The Living God is the pillar and ground of the truth, not some man-made religion...

“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13

Jesus was not talking to the Catholic church...Jesus was neither speaking to just the Apostles or disciples...The Holy Spirt did not come to show truth to the Catholic church...

The discourse starts in chapter 14, for those that own a bible...

Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

If a man love me...Not a church...Not a pope, cardinal, bishop or priest...Not an Apostle...A man...Any man...Any man that loves God...

So Christ says His Church will not be destroyed or fall away from him, that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church to always teach the Truth, and He will always be with us. The church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth is much more than a collection of nice people who read a Bible and believe anything they want.

A guy can prove anything by the scripture if he mis-quotes enough scriptures...

40 posted on 06/29/2008 7:48:13 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool
Jesus was talking to Jewish disciples...

If they believed Jesus was Christ, they were also Christians.

Not a Roman Catholic Gentile in the bunch...

Not a Gentile in the bunch, but the only Christians at the time were Catholics.

Jesus was speaking to individuals, not a Roman Catholic church...THAT is the context...

Those individuals WERE the Catholic Church as it existed at the time.

...The Living God is the pillar and ground of the truth, not some man-made religion...

Well, first "pillar and ground of the truth" modifies "church," not "of the living God" (which is merely a prepositional phrase also modifying "church."

Second, you're right about no 'man-made religion.' The reference was to the Catholic Church, created by God the Father, founded by God the Son and guided to this day by God the Holy Spirit.

45 posted on 06/29/2008 9:07:10 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Iscool
A guy can prove anything by the scripture if he mis-quotes enough scriptures...

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the dispensationalist creed.

46 posted on 06/29/2008 9:08:10 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Iscool

You know Scripture!

Bless you and hopefully you’ll get through to the lost.


48 posted on 06/29/2008 9:10:37 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Iscool
Jesus was not talking to the Catholic church...

He certainly is: the Apostles were the Catholic Church at the time.

Jesus was neither speaking to just the Apostles or disciples...

These are Christ's words at the Last Supper. Who else was there but the Apostles?

The Holy Spirt did not come to show truth to the Catholic church...

No. The Holy Spirit came to show to the world through the Catholic Church, which at the time of the Pentecost was entirely sequestered in the upper room.

The discourse starts in chapter 14, for those that own a bible...

Hmmm. Jesus and the twelve gather for the Last Supper at the beginning of John 13, and the discourse runs through the end of John 17.

49 posted on 06/29/2008 9:15:41 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Iscool; FatherofFive
No He didn't...Jesus said the 'gates of Hell' would not prevail against it...

pre·vail –verb (used without object) 1. to be widespread or current; exist everywhere or generally: Silence prevailed along the funeral route. 2. to appear or occur as the more important or frequent feature or element; predominate: Green tints prevail in the upholstery. 3. to be or prove superior in strength, power, or influence (usually fol. by over): They prevailed over their enemies in the battle. 4. to succeed; become dominant; win out: to wish that the right side might prevail.

According to the dictionary, if the gates of Hell did "Prevail" The Catholic Church would be destroyed. I guess your interpreation is off.

The Living God is the pillar and ground of the truth, not some man-made religion...

That is not what the Bible says, As Father of Five quoted:“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15,

You might want to look that one up.

A guy can prove anything by the scripture if he mis-quotes enough scriptures...

I wish you had put this at the beginning of your post, so that we would know what you were planning on right from the start.

51 posted on 06/29/2008 9:19:22 AM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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