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Posted on 06/19/2008 10:31:20 AM PDT by NYer
Rancor? How did you reach that conclusion?
That the Scriptures do not interpret themselves is evidenced by the myriad of Christian denominations in existence today.
Look around you! There is a new christian denomination formed every day. Christ called us to unity not dissention.
Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]
PURIFYING THE SOUL ON EARTH IS WORTH 100X WHAT IT TAKES AFTER [Catholic Caucus]
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory
The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Required for entrance to Purgatory? Personal question for Cathloic Freepers.
(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory
Straight Answers: What Is Purgatory Like?
Do Catholics Believe in Purgatory?
Purgatory, Indulgences, and the Work of Jesus Christ (Discussion)
Prayer to Release the Souls of Purgatory
The Apostle’s Creed says He [Jesus] descended into hell. meaning of course, not Gehenna but the place where the souls of the just were waiting for deliverance by Christ. In my imagination I see Christ greeting Adam and Moses et al. with a most unlikely person at his right hand.
shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.
What is the sin against the Holy Ghost?
Blasphemy.
Exactly.
A comment and a question?
If people who are not totally righteous (and who among us is totally righteous?) go to purgatory, then why did the Lord tell the thief on the cross that he would be with HIM today in paradise? I don’t think that Jesus meant he was going to be hanging out with the guy in Purgatory.
Also, I noted that several of the statements in this piece are attributed to Jewish “legend.” I would not want to base any belief on a legend.
First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Also, I noted that several of the statements in this piece are attributed to Jewish “legend.” I would not want to base any belief on a legend.
Legend = oral tradition. This is how the faith was passed down for generations until the printing press made it possible to finally transcribe and reproduce texts. Remember not everything Jesus said and did was written down. The same is true for the Old Testament. The Written Law is another name for the Torah. The Oral Law is a legal commentary on the Torah, explaining how its commandments are to be carried out. Common sense suggests that some sort of oral tradition was always needed to accompany the Written Law, because the Torah alone, even with its 613 commandments, is an insufficient guide to Jewish life.
Without an oral tradition, some of the Torah's laws would be incomprehensible. In the Shema's first paragraph, the Bible instructs: "And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart. And you shall teach them diligently to your children, and you shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk on the road, when you lie down and when you rise up. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for frontlets between your eyes" (see Deuteronomy 6:4-8). ref.
Excellent post, NYer. Thanks.
Thank you for your comments.
If this author meant oral tradition, I wonder why did he simply not use that term. Oral tradition and legend are NOT the same. My dictionary defines the word legend as “a story that has been passed down for years and is unlikely to be true.” So much for that. There are a multitude of legends in all cultures - Atlantis, Narcissus, Pandora’s Box, and on and on - I’m confident that you do not believe these are on the level of the “legend” you are promulgating; yet I am pretty certain that for many years people believed them as real, just as they believed in all the stories of Medusa, Zeus, Hera, and so on.
Regarding the “I say to you today” as if Jesus had to clarify to the thief that what he was saying was actually being said today and not yesterday, this is EXACTLY what the Jehovah’s witnesses use for their evidence.
After all the stuff I have read on here about Purgatory from the Catholic contingent, and all the stuff I have read from the non-Catholic contingent, I came up with the concept that there is a Purgatory, where people must be purged of their hay, stubble and straw, but only Catholics have to suffer it. Did you ever even think that because you don’t believe Jesus died for ALL of your sins, that maybe you do need the extra cleansing and those of us who believe His precious blood covered all don’t?
Back to being serious, however, I do plan to check into this some more, as I am interested in what the early church fathers had to say. Another Freeper has given me some info and I am going to be reading that.
And what about Limbo? I haven’t heard a peep about that but my dear father, poor soul, believed it.
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.
Paved Paradise,
perhaps these may also help:
Regarding St. Dismas, the Good Thief, and redemptive suffering
http://www.fisheaters.com/offeringitup.html
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=114
And a bit on Purgatory, courtesy of fisheaters:
http://www.fisheaters.com/purgatory.html
I sincerely hope that this aids you. God bless.
I am not a Catholic. However, the older I get, the more “Catholic” I seem to be getting. I have some issues with some of the beliefs, but there is so much schism in all of the offshoot Protestant churches that I can’t help but wonder. Thanks.
I think you accidentally posted a comment to me that you meant for another on here.
Sorry. I think you sent it correctly. I’m having a senior moment. LOL.
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