Madonna of the Rosary
Lorenzo Lotto
1539
Oil on canvas, 384 x 264 cm
Church of San Nicolo, Cingoli
Posted on 06/17/2008 7:55:24 AM PDT by NYer
This is an “ecumenical” thread. Antagonism is not allowed.
Yes; full access to searchable scripture, to the writings of the Fathers, and to the catechetical material on the Internet is a severe blow to the wobbly edifice of Protestantism, of which it is not likely to recover.
When my wife became ready to convert from Protestantism, she decided to give her Baptist pastor a chance. He gave her two books. One was a guide to the writings of the Church fathers that carefully avoided citing the most Catholic-sounding passages from St. Ingatius, while taking issue with some peripheral matter in the adjacent chapters. The other was a brief overview on the history of the Early Church, that -- miracle of miracles -- did not support his claim that there have always been a Baptist Church anyway. A half-hour with Google was all I needed to make salad of these two.
Thank you very much for the link you provided in your post...it is very helpful and useful to me...
The rosary possesses no "staying power." Its words are an affront to the Triune God who alone is deserving of our prayers.
More, please.
There's a couple problems with that statement.
1. It suffers from the "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy. ("No true Scotsman puts sugar on his oats." "Argyle puts sugar on his oats." "Then Argyle is not a true Scotsman."). That's a category error.
2. Even if we ignore the above logical fallacy, that doesn't help any individual. No true believer will stop believing. Check. Doesn't mean I'll always continue to believe - I might not be a "true believer."
3. My intent is irrelevant. Sometimes we trip and compromise our intents.
Here's the simple problem: I don't intend to ever stop believing, but I know that left to my own devices, I still could because I've come awfully close in the past. I've felt the metaphorical hand of God pulling me back from unbelief and rebellion.
At the end of the day, as a Calvinist, I believe that God must give us his grace if we are to endure to the end. Still, I think the Catholics are right to point out that it would be presumptuous to assume any of us are automatically going to make it.
Any formalism that assumes you're saved because you do something - whether it's praying a specific prayer (or that generic "sinner's prayer), or any other action or attribute (e.g. intellectual assent) is in error.
One's salvation rests in God's election confirmed by endurance to the end. There is none of us 100% sure of our election, but we can be 100% confident in God's faithfulness. He'll save his people.
Of course.
You, Jude, are a good example of how thoughtful Calvinists make good Catholics. If they endure that long, that is.
Bingo! Hence St. Paul's admonition that we must persevere to the end.
At the end of the day, as a Calvinist, I believe that God must give us his grace if we are to endure to the end. Still, I think the Catholics are right to point out that it would be presumptuous to assume any of us are automatically going to make it.
Double Bingo - Kudos, my friend, for your astute observation. God gives us the graces but He also gives us free will. In Matt. 12:30-32, Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives. John 6:70-71 reminds us that Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
That's where you and I part ways. Rom. 8 couldn't be more clear that the predestined are all justified, sanctified, and glorified.
My point is that I don't know if I'm one of those chosen to persevere to the end. I sure think so, and hope so, and intend to stick it out - but if I were to fall away (irrevocably) it would be because I'm one of the self-deluded whom Christ does not know.
Amen, Jude. The "proof" is in the endurance.
Tremble? No, the response is not fear, but pity for those taken in by false gods and false promises.
It’s not a logical fallacy in Christianity.
One either continues as a believer or one is not a believer. While a Scotsman can or cannot put sugar on his oats, a Christian cannot ever be an unbeliever.
“The majority of what you reference is extra-Biblical fables which ultimately bring nothing good to the one who believes them.
The rosary possesses no “staying power.” Its words are an affront to the Triune God who alone is deserving of our prayers.”
We pray the Rosary in honor of The Blessed Mother. It begins with The Apostles Creed. Take a random three words from the Creed, for example, the “communion of saints” which refers to the bond of unity among all believers, whether on earth, or in heaven, who are committed followers of Christ:
In Christ we are made part of God’s family (1 Tim 3:15), children of God (1 Jn. 3:1), joint heirs with Christ (Rom 8:17), and partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4). This communion of saints is known to Catholics as the Mystical Body of Christ. (1 Cor. 10:16; Gal 3:28; Eph 1:22-23, 4:4, 4:15-16, 5:21-32; and Col 1:18, 3:15.) Thus, we are joined in a supernatural union as members of Christ’s own body, and thus as members of one another. Each of us participates in the divine life of Christ Himself.
Consider the image of the vine and branches that Jesus talked about in Jn 15:1-5. Because we, as branches, are connected to Christ the vine, we are also connected to each other through Christ. It is the life and grace of Jesus that gives us life and unites us in our common pilgrimage to heaven.
St. Paul emphasizes this unity in Christ’s body in 1 Cor 12:12-27...
Quote:
[14] For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
[15] If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.
[16] And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.
[17] If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
[18] But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
[19] If all were a single organ, where would the body be?
[20] As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
[21] The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
[22] On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable,
[23] and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
[24] which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part,
[25] that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
[26] If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
[27] Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
...and in Rom 12:4-16.
Quote:
[4] For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,
[5] so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another....
...[16] Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly; never be conceited.
These are the biblical reasons underpinning the communion of saints - the Mystical Body of Christ - that provide the reason why Catholics ask the members of the body to which we belong to act and intercede on our behalf. In short...
(1) All Christians are members of Christ’s body and one another (Rom 12:5, etc.)
(2) Jesus has only one body (Eph 4:4, Col 3:15
(3) Death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rom 8:35-39); and
(4) Christians are bound in mutual love (Rom 12:10; Thess 5:11; Gal 6:2)
In that union of one body in Christ, that reaches from earth into heaven, we Catholics call for help and support from our older brothers and sisters who have already “won the race” just as in our human families we turn to our siblings for aid. It’s not a matter of thinking that the Father is not available, nor is it a matter of worshiping other than God. Indeed, it is a reaffirmation of the divine Christ that permits us to ask our brothers and sisters “in Christ” for their intercessions. Prayer to saints is a recognition of the unity of all Christians in the body of Christ - the one mediator - connected to and sharing in His divinity just as the branches are part of the vine.
The “communion of saints” refers to the bond of unity among all believers, whether on earth, or in heaven, who are committed followers of Christ. In Christ we are made part of God’s family (1 Tim 3:15), children of God (1 Jn. 3:1), joint heirs with Christ (Rom 8:17), and partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4). This communion of saints is known to Catholics as the Mystical Body of Christ. (1 Cor. 10:16; Gal 3:28; Eph 1:22-23, 4:4, 4:15-16, 5:21-32; and Col 1:18, 3:15.) Thus, we are joined in a supernatural union as members of Christ’s own body, and thus as members of one another. Each of us participates in the divine life of Christ Himself.
Do you continue to maintain that the “rosary possesses no “staying power”?
Please point to where I’ve referenced “extra-Biblical fables” in my previous posts in my Biblical references? And I’m assuming this one will fall into the same category so let’s include it as well - thanks - in anticipation.
Beautiful pictures annalex. Thanks for posting them.
You’re welcome - makes me happy it helped you.
“The majority of what you reference is extra-Biblical fables which ultimately bring nothing good to the one who believes them.”
It is the meditation on the mysteries that gives the rosary its staying power. The Joyful Mysteries are these: the Annunciation (Luke 1:26-38), the Visitation (Luke 1:40-56), the Nativity (Luke 2:6-20), the Presentation of Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:21-39), and the Finding of the child Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:41-51).
Then come the Sorrowful Mysteries: the Agony in the Garden (Matt. 26:36-46), the Scourging (Matt. 27:26), the Crowning with Thorns (Matt. 27:29), the Carrying of the Cross (John 19:17), and the Crucifixion (Luke 23:33-46).
The final Mysteries are the Glorious: the Resurrection (Luke 24:1-12), the Ascension (Luke 24:50-51), the Descent of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4), the Assumption of Mary into heaven (Rev. 12), and her Coronation (cf. Rev. 12:1).
http://www.catholic.com/library/Rosary.asp
Which ones are “extra-Biblical fables”? I also referenced the Bible on the first page of the thread so please enlighten me?
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