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To: xzins; NYer
True believers hang in there. Period. No exceptions. As an example, Do YOU intend to stop believing?

There's a couple problems with that statement.

1. It suffers from the "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy. ("No true Scotsman puts sugar on his oats." "Argyle puts sugar on his oats." "Then Argyle is not a true Scotsman."). That's a category error.

2. Even if we ignore the above logical fallacy, that doesn't help any individual. No true believer will stop believing. Check. Doesn't mean I'll always continue to believe - I might not be a "true believer."

3. My intent is irrelevant. Sometimes we trip and compromise our intents.

Here's the simple problem: I don't intend to ever stop believing, but I know that left to my own devices, I still could because I've come awfully close in the past. I've felt the metaphorical hand of God pulling me back from unbelief and rebellion.

At the end of the day, as a Calvinist, I believe that God must give us his grace if we are to endure to the end. Still, I think the Catholics are right to point out that it would be presumptuous to assume any of us are automatically going to make it.

68 posted on 06/18/2008 1:53:44 PM PDT by jude24 (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: jude24; xzins
Here's the simple problem: I don't intend to ever stop believing, but I know that left to my own devices, I still could because I've come awfully close in the past.

Bingo! Hence St. Paul's admonition that we must persevere to the end.

At the end of the day, as a Calvinist, I believe that God must give us his grace if we are to endure to the end. Still, I think the Catholics are right to point out that it would be presumptuous to assume any of us are automatically going to make it.

Double Bingo - Kudos, my friend, for your astute observation. God gives us the graces but He also gives us free will. In Matt. 12:30-32, Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives. John 6:70-71 reminds us that Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

71 posted on 06/18/2008 4:38:48 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: jude24

It’s not a logical fallacy in Christianity.

One either continues as a believer or one is not a believer. While a Scotsman can or cannot put sugar on his oats, a Christian cannot ever be an unbeliever.


75 posted on 06/18/2008 5:54:32 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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