Posted on 05/26/2008 4:50:16 AM PDT by NYer
Let’s try re-parsing those “or’s”
Prayer is a request for help OR expression of thanks to God (or an object of worship that is not God).
Therefore, prayer is addressed to an object of worship — requesting help, or thanking God is still worshipping God. Or, it is worshipping someone/something else other than God.
A request for help is not necessarily a prayer — i.e., “Mom! Please help me!” But, if you pray to your Mother and ask for prayer, what are you doing? Just asking for help? NO! You are worshipping her; you have elevated her from a simple individual who can be asked to one who must be approached by prayer. Doesn’t that imply a certain elevation from the natural to the supernatural? If you “ask” God for help, whether it’s under your breath, or a silent request, you are praying, are you not? Or, can you go up to him and say, “hey, I want the Indians to beat the Yankees.” The content is not the issue - it’s the mode. Praying is worshipping. Prayer is the entering into the presence of God — our object of worship. Unless Mary or the Saints are being prayed to, then THEY are the object... and idolatry ensues.
The Lord’s Prayer is a model prayer. When the disciples asked Christ to teach them to pray, Christ said, “pray then like this:” In this model, Christ teaches the disciples to (according to your example) WORSHIP God by asking his name to be hallowed, for his will to be done.... So, every prayer is to be worshipful, no?
And, finally, I will be praying to God (no one else!) for those who feel that anyone besides The Lord deserves worship.
Hoss
You said: The word ‘commanded’ is past tense. Therefore, Jesus had already taught the disciples ‘all things’ which Jesus commanded to be taught. QED.
Yup. And as John indicates in his gospel, not all of it was written down. Therefore since we are to observe them we have to get those not documented in scripture from another source.
You said: Prayer is a request for help OR expression of thanks to God (or an object of worship that is not God). Therefore, prayer is addressed to an object of worship — requesting help, or thanking God is still worshipping God.
Nice try. No matter how far you stretch it it is wrong.
...and since you believe in sola scriptura...where in scripture does it specifically say that prayer is always a form of worship.
Ah, but Haydock puts it better than I ever could:
1. by always dwelling in the hearts of the faithful; These last six lines of St. Matthew's gospel, says the bright luminary of France, Bossuet, most clearly demonstrate the infallibility and indefectibility of the one, holy, Catholic Church, which all are commanded to hear and obey. Jesus Christ will make good his promise:
2. by his sacramental presence in the holy Eucharist;
3. by his providential care, and constant protection to his holy Catholic Church.
And has been pointed out, John was referring to things Jesus had done. Matthew is referring to things Jesus commanded to be taught. Just because one is infinite (or at least so much all the books in the world could not contain them) does not mean the same apples to the other. They are TWO different things. And clearly Matthew states that Jesus had already taught them all things that they are to teach, which most definitely must be more finite (sorry for bad math analogy) or the disciples would have an impossible task.
Been 10 years and I still haven't seen any "reliable" sources from you.
You said: And has been pointed out, John was referring to things Jesus had done. Matthew is referring to things Jesus commanded to be taught.
And as I informed you in #253 (and you never refuted):
“I hate to tell you, but when one commands someone to do something it is an act (as in He did something...He commanded). The act of commanding is something that “person” did. One of the things Jesus did was command the Apostles to “baptize in the name...etc.” John tells us He did many more things. By extension some of those “dids” would include other things He commanded.
Again, unless you wish to put limits on what God can do with His “dids”.”
If I were presenting so preposterous a premise, I too would claim "clearly."
Doesn't make it so, but what the hey?
Rev 5:7 He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne.
5:8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
The elders in heaven having "heard" the petitions present them to God
Tobit 12:12 12 I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead.
The Angel Rapheal recorded then gave the Petitions to God.
Yes, as a Catholic you would have to read it that way, but that is not how it is translated. Assuming the English interpretations are correct (KJV, NIV, etc), it seems conclusive that Jesus has already provided the apostles all things to be taught, and BTW He would always be with them.
You said: And clearly Matthew states that Jesus had already taught them all things that they are to teach, which most definitely must be more finite (sorry for bad math analogy) or the disciples would have an impossible task.
Yes, as I have stated previously He taught them all things (and by the way promised to be with them to the end of time guiding them) but as John indicates not all those things were written down in the Gospels. See #288 for the rest of the answer so I don’t have to repeat that commanding is something someone does.
Yes, as a protestant you would have to read it that way, but that is not how it is translated. Assuming the English interpretations are correct (KJV, NIV, etc), it seems conclusive that Jesus has taught many things and would be with them to teach many more, through the church He founded, the Catholic Church.
You said: it seems conclusive that Jesus has already provided the apostles all things to be taught,
Again, providing all things to be taught does not equal documented in scripture.
That is because the argument seemed nonsensical to me. His commands are a SUBSET of His acts. Just because his acts are too numerous to write down, does not imply the same as His commands. Whereas, it is possible that His commands (a subset) could be as numerous as His acts, but a read Matthew indicates otherwise. Theoretically, the subset could be as small as one or two.
You have done well.
Only if you believe the apostles intentional omitted things in their writings. Jesus stated he already taught them all things to be taught. Did the apostle fail in their job? I think not.
Transubstantiation requires nothing more than faith. Jesus said it; hence it must be so.
You said: but a read Matthew indicates otherwise.
Wrong. That is a WAG and not sound biblical scholarship. The verses in Matthew make no statement at all as to whether scripture documents all of Christ’s commands. Nowhere in any part of scripture does it make that claim. The only sense of it is found in John where he indicates that not all that Jesus did is found in scripture. Even if none of the (evidently voluminous) “dids” were commands (which I highly doubt) everything that Jesus did was instructive to His followers and were part of His teaching, were known to His followers and surely handed down to those who followed.
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