[colorcountry]

This should prove interesting.

[colorcountry]

Ping

Narses, you may want to ping your list.

[metmom]

Mormonism's founder, Joseph Smith, claimed that in 1820 God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in the woods near his home in Palmyra, New York. Jesus said that for the preceding 1700 years (give or take a century--Mormons can't say exactly) the world had been living in the darkness of a total apostasy from the gospel.

1700 years.

What's safe to say on this thread?

[svcw]

Some one asked on another thread/post who the ldsers hold as the ultimate authority, I do not know if anyone answered but it is clear - Joe Smith.

[Alex Murphy]

Ping to read later

[Andyman]

If the church went into apostasy during the time of he apostles, and the Bible was written AFTER the time of the apostles, does it not follow that the Bible was written by apostates? If the Bible is considered to be gospel by Mormons, why do they believe something written by apostates?

[Colofornian]

From the article: The best way to refute this charge is to have the Mormon read Jesus' promises regarding the doctrinal integrity and the temporal perpetuity of his Church: "On this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18); "Behold, I will be with you always, even until the end of the world" (Matt. 28:20); "The Father . . . will give you another Advocate to be with you always" (John 14:16)...Go through each text, pointing out that none mentions a complete apostasy.

Excellent point. (In fact I'll add additional verses at the bottom of post).

LOOK also at the many New Testament verses which speak of the Church as Christ's own body, such as Romans 12:1-5; 1 Corinthians 12:12-27; Ephesians 3:4-6; 5:21-32; and Colossians 1:18. Since Christ is the mind and head of his Church (Eph. 4:15-16), animating the body, the members enjoy an organic spiritual union with him (John 15:1-8). It's inconceivable that he would permit his body to disintegrate under the attacks of Satan. The apostle John reminds us that Jesus is greater than Satan (1 John 4:4)(1 Timothy 3:15 describes the Church as "The household of God...the pillar and foundation of truth." In light of this, we find additional assurance that the house that Jesus built will not be pillaged by Satan. "No one can enter a strong man's house to plunder his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then, he can plunder his house" (Mark 3:27; cf. Matt. 12:29). Jesus is the "strong man" guarding his household, the Church.)

Another great point.

Although, tragically, the gates of hell can and do prevail over individual Christians who succumb to mortal sin and cut themselves off from life-giving union with Christ (Rom. 11:22; Gal. 5:4; 2 Peter 2:20-22; 1 John 5:16-17), they can't prevail against the Church Jesus built on the rock of Peter.(Jesus didn't command his followers to do things he himself couldn't do. "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on a rock. The rains fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on a rock" (Matt. 7:24- 25). It was no coincidence that Jesus used the words, "on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18; Luke 6:46-49). See also Hebrews 11:10 and 1 Peter 2:6-8.) If they could--if they did--Jesus is made to look foolish for having taught, "Which of you wishing to construct a tower does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if there is enough for its completion? Otherwise, after laying the foundation and finding himself unable to finish the work the onlookers should laugh at him and say, 'This one began to build but did not have the resources to finish'" (Luke 15:28-30).

Superb diagnosis of Scripture here.

Other verses which highlight that Jesus is the Ever-Present Master Church-Builder who prevails as the Strong Guardian of a Church that has never fully apostatized are:

Ephesians 3:21: to him [God] be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

The apostle Paul's prophesy here is that ALL generations of the Church would (and have) given God glory, for ever and ever!

1 Timothy 4:1:: The Spirit clearly says that in later times SOME will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

I would encourage ALL of us that we dare not stumble over that word "some" and read it the Holy Spirit's EXPRESS prophesy that the "later times" apostasy would only encompass "some" and not "all."

[ConservativeMind]

Ping.

[Revelation 911]

Ecumenic threads in this trial run are closed to all “anti” arguments. Posters who try to tear down other’s beliefs – or use subterfuge to accomplish the same goal – are the disrupters on ecumenic threads and will be booted from the thread and/or suspended.

[Godzilla]

The Apostle Paul wrote: "Unto Him (God) be glory in the Church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end Amen" (Eph. 3:21). Could that be true if there was a universal apostasy of the church for several centuries? Jesus also said, "Upon this Rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). Notice that it is Christ Himself (not mortal men) who builds His church or adds to it (Acts 2:47), and Christ has all power in heaven and in earth (Matt. 28:18; Rev. 19:6). LDS often claim that the true church must be built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets, as Eph 2:20 says. This is commented upon later in this chapter under the sub-title, "Apostles." But Paul wrote, "...other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (I Cor. 3:11). Since Jesus Christ is the Foundation of the church, He is also part of the church! Could that church "collapse" or become extinct when the omnipotent Christ is the Foundation of it? Is it possible for Christ to lose "the church of God which He hath purchased with His own blood" (Acts 20:28; Eph. 5:25)? Christ is called the "Good Shepherd" in John 10:11. But, any shepherd who loses all his sheep is not a very good shepherd!

Jesus must bear some responsibility for the existence of the church since God "gave Him to be head over all things to the church" (Eph. 1:22). The Lord Himself also nourishes (feeds) and cherishes (lovingly cares for) the church (Eph. 5:29). Jesus never told anyone else to go build His church. Instead, He declared, "I will build my church" (Matt. 16:18). And after He ascended into heaven, Acts 2:47 declares, "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." He needed no successor to build His church because He lives forever (Heb. 7:24-25). That is why Col. 1:18 declares, "He is the head of the body, the church." Notice the present tense verb is used which shows that Jesus was still Head of His church even though He had ascended to heaven many years before that was written! And Jesus is still the Head of His Church and He is adding members to it today!

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims7.htm#UNIVERSAL%20APOSTASY