DR. PUSEY ON THE WORSHIP OF MARY IN THE CHURCH OF ROME

Sword and the Trowel ^ | 1866 | Charles Spurgeon

[Petrosius]

I've come to the conclusion that the debate is not whether you guys worship things other than God, but the debate should be about what you define as worship...

Exactly! Such a discussion can be both respectful and informative.

In some of our eyes, you guys worship Mary...From a biblical perspective, it appears you guys worship Mary... Where is YOUR line??? When does veneration become worship???

A question asked in a respectful manner deserves a respectful reply and I will try my best.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church we get the following statements:

I. "YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE"

2084 God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: "I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: "You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods." (Deut 6:13-14) God's first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him.

2085 The one and true God first reveals his glory to Israel. (Cf. Ex 19:16-25; 24:15-18) The revelation of the vocation and truth of man is linked to the revelation of God. Man's vocation is to make God manifest by acting in conformity with his creation "in the image and likeness of God":

There will never be another God, Trypho, and there has been no other since the world began . . . than he who made and ordered the universe. We do not think that our God is different from yours. He is the same who brought your fathers out of Egypt "by his powerful hand and his outstretched arm." We do not place our hope in some other god, for there is none, but in the same God as you do: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (St. Justin, Dial. cum Tryphone Judaeo 11,1:Pg 6, 497)

2086 "The first commandment embraces faith, hope, and charity. When we say 'God' we confess a constant, unchangeable being, always the same, faithful and just, without any evil. It follows that we must necessarily accept his words and have complete faith in him and acknowledge his authority. He is almighty, merciful, and infinitely beneficent. Who could not place all hope in him? Who could not love him when contemplating the treasures of goodness and love he has poured out on us? Hence the formula God employs in the Scripture at the beginning and end of his commandments: 'I am the LORD.'" (Rom 1:18-32)

Faith: We believe in God because He is God.
Hope: The confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God.
Charity/Love: To love God above all things and all creatures for Him and because of Him.

These are the three Theological Virtues that are directed to God, and to God alone. Even the love we show Mary and the saints is only because of their closeness to God and because they are loved by Him, not because of an intrinsic goodness in themselves apart from God.

II. "HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE"

2095 The theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity inform and give life to the moral virtues. Thus charity leads us to render to God what we as creatures owe him in all justice. The virtue of religion disposes us to have this attitude.

Adoration

2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. "You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve," says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy. (Lk 4:8; cf. Deut 6:13)

The attributes of being "the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love" are given to God alone, and never to Mary or any of the saints.

Sacrifice

2099 It is right to offer sacrifice to God as a sign of adoration and gratitude, supplication and communion: "Every action done so as to cling to God in communion of holiness, and thus achieve blessedness, is a true sacrifice." (St. Augustine, De civ. Dei 10,6: PL 41, 283)

2100 Outward sacrifice, to be genuine, must be the expression of spiritual sacrifice: "The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit. . . . " (Ps 51:17) The prophets of the Old Covenant often denounced sacrifices that were not from the heart or not coupled with love of neighbor. (Cf. Am 5:21-25; Isa 1:10-20) Jesus recalls the words of the prophet Hosea: "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice." (Mt 9:13; 12:7; cf. Hos 6:6) The only perfect sacrifice is the one that Christ offered on the cross as a total offering to the Father's love and for our salvation. (Cf. 9:13-14) By uniting ourselves with his sacrifice we can make our lives a sacrifice to God.

For Catholic sacrifice is at the heart of worship. This is why the Mass is so important to us. It is our sacrifice, our supreme act of worship to God. It needs to be noted here again, lest our beliefs be misunderstood, that we do not believe that at the Mass that we are offering any other sacrifice than that of our Lord Jesus Christ upon the Cross. Our sacrifice is not anything that we bring to the altar, it is not our offerings, not our prayers, not our praise but the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Nor do are we sacrificing Jesus anew. Rather that one sacrifice on Calvary two thousand years ago is made present to us here and now. This supreme sacrifice is made to God, and to God alone through Jesus Christ; it is never offered to Mary or any of the saints.

With regard to the veneration of Mary:

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." (Lk 1:48; Paul VI, Marialis cultus 56) The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." (Lumen gentium 66) The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary. (Cf. Paul VI, Marialis cultus 42; Sacrosanctum concilium 103)

The veneration directed toward Mary is basically an act of filial love based on her excellence as the Mother of God. Thus this love of Mary is derived from and directed toward the love of God who alone is loved for His own sake. Nor do any prayers directed toward Mary ever attribute to her divine attributes or rely on any intrinsic powers of hers. Rather they only seek her intercessions before the throne of God who is the source of all blessings. In the Litany of the Saints, when we invoke any of the persons of the Trinity we cry out: Lord, have mercy. When we invoke Mary or any of the saints we cry out: Pray for us.

You may still think that our veneration of Mary and the saints is exaggerated and misplaced but it is hardly the same as the worship we give to God, and to God alone.

[Iscool]

Do not assume the "co" in "co-redeemer" means "equal to." It does not. The "co" is the Latin word "cum," meaning "with." I have personally explained this to you before.

That's what some of you guys claim anyway...But the official position is; there is no position...Your magisterium refuses to put an official definition on the phrase...While they still continue to use it...

At least some of the council claim that your church knows how to define it, but claim it would be perlious to their ecumenical efforts...

Similarly, John Paul the Great's words are not doctrine, nor did his speaking of them make them doctrine. They are not a teaching of the Catholic Church. If they were, they would be in the Catechism.

Another innacuracy...Although it is not 'yet' in the catechism, it definately is a teaching of your church...

[Petrosius]

On the other hand if I asked "do many Catholics worship Mary" and you again said "no" (citing Catholic dogma) I would say you were throwing up a smoke screen, disowning so many "Catholics" you would substantially reduce the number of Catholics, generally claimed to be approximately 1.2 Billion.

Do you have any surveys that document the many Catholic who affirm that they worship Mary? I have lived my whole life in the Catholic Church and I have never met a single Catholic who worships Mary. If, by chance, you do meet such a one please inform him that such practice is condemned by the Church and contrary to our faith. It is dishonest, however, to present to the world as Catholic faith what the Church herself condemns.

[Iscool]

Thankyou for the response...

[Religion Moderator]

Stop the Jack Chick accusations.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

As is so often the case, your posts are both personally insulting (against the FR RF rules) and cryptic beyond lucidity.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Roman Catholics confuse conditional and positional truths as found in the Scriptures.

Ex: The need for continual propitiatory sacrifice (they will state that it's the same sacrifice perpetuated through time) through the mass, although in numerous passages of Scripture it states that positionally before God we, as Christians, are justified. That's because no more sacrifices for sin need to be made - Jesus or otherwise by anyone. Jesus is done with the sacrifice work. It started and was consummated on Calvary. It's done, but the application continues to this day.

AMEN! For those with ears to hear.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Well according to some astronomer who just happens to be the Vatican's director of astronomy, but doesn't speak for the vatican or the pope, but who is authorized to make press releases, aliens are Catholics brothers. So what if they are animal, mineral or vegetable or (Ephesians 2:2) the prince of the air, and emember, you can believe in them, but you can't believe they can fly.

Ah, but the real question is do they redeem or co-redeem anybody?

If they redeem, they are deity. If they co-redeem, they are not deity.

Or maybe they're co-deities.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Do you question whether or not JPII made those comments about Mary being the “co-redemptrix?”

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Actually, that quote is from L'Osservatore Romano. A full citation is as follows: Inseg VIII/1 (1985) 318-319 [ORE 876:7]

(ORE => L'Osservatore Romano, weekly edition in English. First number = cumulative edition number; second number = page)

As for the citations only being from hate sites, from what I can tell Vox Populi is far from a hate site -- check out their FAQ for the quote. I found this quote on many Catholic sites.

Many thanks, paridel.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

So for the record, contrary to the accusation you made earlier, you know of no Calvinist who believes in reincarnation,

Unless you've managed to recall one in the past few hours. Any luck?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The EXACT same kind of lie that Jack Chick and many other haters tell.

You continue to bring up the name of "Jack Chick" when the RM has asked you not to.

One in a long string of lies posted by Dr E.

I have posted no lies. Some people simply don't care to hear the truth and so they strike back, calling people names and "making it personal."

[Dr. Eckleburg]

So far no proof has been offered for the statement that any Calvinist believes in reincarnation.

In fact, a quick tally of the many Calvinists on FR shows none of them believes in reincarnation.

So we can only surmise this untrue remark was said for some other, unknown purpose.

Interestingly, it would seem to be Catholics who would be more inclined to believe in reincarnation since they pray to dead people and ask for intercession from dead people despite Scripture's prohibition of such actions.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

When you put a horse in front of me and ask okay, how many horns does this cow have? and insist on an answer, you have to realize that I don't see a cow in the first place.

LOL.

How about a co-cow?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen, for those with ears to hear.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

LOL.

[markomalley]

But, but they didn’t SAY Jack Chick, they just used his words and his methods without attribution.

PLEASE, PLEASE...STOP CITING THE EVIL FOWL WORDS!

DEVASTATION FOLLOWS whenever those words are cited.

You are going to cause virgins to be slaughtered in reparation to the gods...

This is SIMPLY UNACCEPTABLE for Free Republic!

[markomalley]

The law of the Catholic Church is not binding outside the Catholic Church therefore, it is not “settled.”

First of all, you've drawn yourself into this argument. Like it or not.

Secondly, so let me get this straight:

I could post an article that stated "Presbyterians have secret ceremonies where they sacrifice virgins and make young boys drink their blood."

A Presbyterian says "no we don't"

I say "You're lying...yes you do!"

Narses chimes in and says "I'm a former Presbyterian and I confess to having been forced to drink the blood of virgins."

Yet another Presbyterian says "You are LYING narses. That never happens in Presbyterian churches."

A third Presbyterian cites some obscure portion of the Westminster Confession that EXPLICITLY PROHIBITS the sacrifice of virgins. It EXPLICITLY prohibits the further drinking of the blood of virgins. He says: "there. case closed."

I come back and say "I don't really care what your stupid Westminster Confession says. I KNOW that it happens. The case isn't closed." And the thread continues for 1,000+ posts

Now, you are SERIOUSLY going to say that it is not settled that Presbyterians sacrifice virgins on their altars? Do you think that Federal Law would be written at some point ordering Presbyterians not to participate in human sacrifice?

Well, I got some news for you, my moderating friend, it is SETTLED that Presbyterians do not sacrifice virgins. It doesn't take a law to deal with that. No matter what old dusty articles I can pull out saying otherwise.

Likewise, it is SETTLED that The Catholic Church doesn't worship Mary. There is defined Church teaching that says what the Catholic Church believes and doesn't believe.

To say the Catholic Church worships Mary is about as ludicrous as to say the Catholic Church supports abortion on demand. They are both settled. The Church doesn't do either.

Your statement that it's not settled draws yourself into the argument...it takes a position rather than moderating whether the argument crosses the line or not (you are casting doubt one way or the other). Therefore, as a debate moderator (I do not envy you), you are failing when you take that line.

My suggestion to you is that you simply say "it doesn't matter. As long as racism, advocacy of violence, or doesn't involve a personal attack against another FReeper, it is allowed on a designated [OPEN] thread." And STAY OUT OF THE ARGUMENT.

And if a Catholic FReeper complains about the existence of the [OPEN] thread, delete the post as "he/she is the disruptor." And eventually he/she will learn not to respond to flamebait (which is all this thread is in the first place).

[ChurtleDawg]

My apologies

[Petronski]

Your magisterium refuses to put an official definition on the phrase...

...because it is not an official teaching of the Church. Duh.

Although it is not 'yet' in the catechism, it definately is a teaching of your church...

Because YOU say so?

ROFLMAO