Replies

All –

This is a little synopsis of DU’s recent personal attack on my character. I believe I have been very patient with DU, but some time you have to let them play out on their own to see the real deal. Some how DU believes that if a minister receives pay as a minister that is REALLY BAD and is the ultimate insult. So lets review the highlights. I will only point out DU’s paragraphs and mine stand-alone. It all started out on a dark and stormy night (somewhere in the world anyway):

DU Said - Just out of curiosity, how much does it pay to be a professional anti Mormon, I could get a job doing what you do and in the evenings refute what I had said during the day, now that's job security

! I wouldn’t know since I don’t get paid to do this. 1,019 posted on May 10, 2008 3:51:10 PM PDT by Godzilla (I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message.) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1019#1019

Some how that wasn’t clear to DU that I was/am not a professional (aka paid) anti Mormon. So he followed up here:

U Said: I wouldn’t know since I don’t get paid to do this.

DU Said - I thought you had said earlier that you were a professional theologian, and this was part of your work, pardon me if I got that wrong, are you or are you not a professional religionist? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/reply?c=1095

I thought I had made it clear already. I replied in the following:

DU Said - I thought you had said earlier that you were a professional theologian, and this was part of your work, pardon me if I got that wrong, are you or are you not a professional religionist?

You are the one who has made that accusation on me. What I did say in the past is if that makes you feel better to think that, it was fine by me. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1109#1109

Now one would think that a person as smart as DU would stop here. I clearly said I didn’t get paid to do this (post anti-mormon). This is important to remember by the time you get to the end of my bleat here. Instead of investigate further DU goes over board three posts later.

DU Said - Lurkers, Godzilla is a paid Theologian, he is paid to represent his church, I am an amateur, I get nothing for my service here. I come here only for one reason for the testimony of Jesus, and the Glory of God. ………………. There is no other reason for me to post this. think about it, then Forget Godzilla, he might be lying, for get me, I might be a prevaricator of the first order, ask God, he will never lie to you and will ever answer a petition from an honest seeker. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1098#1098

By this time it is obvious what DU as clearly forgotten what I said in post 1019, but there is something very simple that is evident that he did not do. Does any one have a guess? But then he thinks he has found an area of weakness and goes on to attack me to Tennessee Nana in the following:

Godzilla - What I did say in the past is if that makes you feel better to think that, it was fine by me.

DU Said - LOL! Now you are denying (in an oh so deniable way denying) that you ever said that, Tennessee Nana, didn't you say that increased your esteem for Godzilla? What's your opinion now that he refuses to admit what he said earlier? Who is obfuscating here, the guy who is refusing to admit if he is paid or not, or the guy asking for clarification? what say you Nana? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1325#1325

Remember post 1019 above, he didn’t. Did that stop him, no he thought he was on a roll. To greyfoxx39 he said:

DU Said - I have been wrong before, that's why I asked for clarification, and instead got obfuscation from the king of lizards...

DU Said - Absolute truth, that comes from God. Godzilla said he was a paid theologian, and now he is hiding that. Why do you think he might do that? Why is he attacking FAIR based on that they are paid, and then refusing to answer that question on this very thread? do you think he might have some reason for hiding it here.

DU Said - If Godzilla is hiding the truth here, what else is he willing to shade for his "Cause" can anyone trust him?

DU Said - Hey Godzilla, which is it, are you a paid theologian or not? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1329#1329

Now he is claiming that I said I was a paid theologian (revealed as a “Absolute truth, that comes from God”?). Has anyone figured out what he failed to do yet? The truth has not been hidden, but has already been presented at least once, but he doesn’t want to accept that. To FastCoyote he crowed -

DU Said - Lastly, it was Godzilla (who is refusing to say if he is a paid theologian) who is saying that FAIR was paid for by the LDS church from the beginning. A statement which contravenes the facts so far presented.

DU Said - Who's puffy now? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1340#1340

(Besides the part that the subject was FARM not FAIR - and its Fluffy, not puffy) Still pushing the claim that I am a paid theologian (remember post 1019). But he continues to ignore the fact that I clearly told him I earlier was not receiving any pay for this, so it appears that he thinks I am embarrassed about it. To SkyPilot he said -

DU Said - He's big (even bigger than my posts), He's bad (He has called me names a few times), he's mean (he has never apologized or admitted that he was wrong even when proven so), He breaths fire, OK well not actual fire... (just having fun with the name...)

DU Said - I believe Godzilla is antiquated, his views are steeped in tradition, and his methods do not take into account new findings, or modern methodology he is stuck on information being peer reviewed and not just whether or not it is true …………………... From my perspective, he denies the word of God in favor of the doctrines of men for money. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1347#1347

Now what have I been doing during all of this (other than laughing my head off)? Waaaaay prior to DU’s blitzkrieg I had already made a second, very clear statement regarding my participation here in FR -

DU Said -Lurkers, Godzilla is a paid Theologian, he is paid to represent his church, I am an amateur, I get nothing for my service here.

Lurkers and other FReepers here. DU has pointed out in this post that he tells all that people like me are too stupid to use FR’s capabilities to search. Many months ago DU made this same accusation of me. I told him that if that makes him feel better about it that he can believe what he wants to. I’ve let him continue because it so humorous the way he tries to paint that on me – as if it was truth that it some how negates what I post here. Now DU has accused me of being a paid Theologian again. This is applied in a manner that is equivalent to a personal attack. So what should my response be?

DU (and any interested Lurkers) please go to my profile page and see what I do for a living.

I am a volunteer minister at my church, in charge of multimedia and children’s ministries. I believe in the biblical call that I am a minister even if I don’t have the position, title or official college transcript. I don’t receive a single penny for my work on behalf of Christ. I post here to counter the false translation of Christian doctrine by many mormons here – DU being one of them (evident in my many exchanges with him).

My through my study of God’s Word, the bom and prayer, I can testify to every one here that the Spirit of God has shown to me that the bom is a fake document, written by a false prophet we’ve been warned about in scripture. Put the book of mormon to the test – is it a real historical document telling us about Jew who live in America, feel free to expand your search - since there is no valid evidence of such presence. The Bereans studied the scriptures to verify Paul’s teachings – and were commended for it. Your eternal life is too precious to place solely upon a subjective burning of the bosom.

Don’t buy a used car from J. Smith.

1,190 posted on May 11, 2008 7:41:52 PM PDT by Godzilla (I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message.) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1190#1190

Finally, DU made it up to this post and only went part way through it, stopping short of the comments above and left us with this –

DU Said -I'll respond to the rest of your monster post later when I have time... 1,374 posted on May 14, 2008 4:06:14 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think") http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1374#1374

When he did finish the reply DU called me a liar –

DU Said “Been there, seen that." I went right after you said you were a minister on another thread, I thought it was interesting that you didn't mention that, even though it seems to be a big part of your public persona here. That said, personal pages can contain almost anything, and can be changed at any time. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1462#1462

Ladies and gentlemen of FR who may be reading this post – and especially you DU as you have served a worthwhile object lesson in mormonism. In addition to not checking my profile, you had the answer as far back as at least January 2008 (the “other thread” from above) from this post -

Evangelicals Against Mitt January 21, 2008 10:02:30 PM PST · 458 of 3,072 Godzilla to DelphiUser

DU Said -Some of us are to paid to come on this forum and bash. I believe you stated earlier that you are a professional theologian, I am not, I have a day job.

I never said I was a professional theologian, but if it makes you feel better to think that, then be my guest. BTW, where’s my paycheck then.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1950542/posts?page=458#458

Sarcasm lost to the disillusioned. Now since DU said in context to himself – “Some of US are paid to come on this forum……. “, one could have considered that HE was being paid for posting here (if he were wise, he could charge by the word and retire early with lots of filthy lucre). Then he addresses me. Doesn’t matter to me if he is or is not paid, if the man behind the pseudonym is some one from FARM/FAIR or EIEIO. As I said very simply in my reply #1190 – look at my profile, which has been in place (with some additions) from shortly after I signed on to FR (2003). I say some pretty personal things about my self there – why would I want to generate that material as a lie? Which is more believable – DU or me?

DU believed a lie he justified to himself to account for me. Even in the face of my stating I was not a professional theologian, nor paid – he carried his lie to fruition (4 months later) – irregardless of the stated facts and truth available to evaluate.

This is a lesson in mormonism, people caught in mormonism – especially multigenerational mormons – have a religious – domestic – heritage – pressure to believe in mormonism, no matter what the facts are. They will believe the lie because the consequences of the truth are too overwhelming due to the societal pressure. DU wanted to believe I was a despised PAYED theologian, in an effort to prop his presentation at the expense of my credibility, but in doing so he ignored my statements to the contrary (my witness) and other facts such as one mouse click to view my profile, as I have done to many here in FR. He chose to believe a lie and and convinced himself as his postings above make clear. Mormons believe the fiction that is the bom and the false prophet Joseph Smith because to do otherwise would strip away their self defense mechanism and realize how foolish those beliefs are. So too DU held those beliefs about me to bolster himself.

Today’s mormonism fails to examine the whole article too. In today’s modern age, the stories that Joseph Smith and successive prophets of mormonism in the past have passed off for so called truth, have been soundly disproved. As I have pointed out many times – the evidence is right under their noses –

- 4000+ changes to the bom alone – with out MS to check or verify – except two extant handwritten copies of the original ms.

- Mormon scientists will admit (though less openly now that many have been excommunicated) there is no archaeological support to the bom, no anthropological support, no dna support, paleotological / botanical / metallurgical sport to the civilization listed in the bom.

- There are strong evidences that much of what wasn’t copied directly out of the KJV bibles (errors and all!) also came from other sources/books in existence at the time.

- Joseph Smith’s inclusion of the Johannian Comma in the JST (aka Inspired Version) translation of the bible.

Further scandalous and false translations of the Book of Breathing and the fraudulent Kinderhook plates show that Smith was not an inspired translator. One could go on regarding the open contradictions in the first vision story, lies concerning polygamy and his own adultery ( which resulted in one of the Three Witnesses being expelled from the mormon church) and the other sordid parts of his life, how did DU put it - If JOSEPH SMITH is hiding the truth here, what else is he willing to shade for his "Cause" can anyone trust him?

Now one poster said DU’s insight to my line of employment as God derived. I don’t believe that. But what I do see is an effort to discredit opposition who can and will challenge the propaganda of FARM and FAIR that forms so much of DU’s apologetic. And this is done in a fashion similar to FARMS and FAIR too. Never the less, I am still here and will for the duration – hog hosing or not – to continue what I have done and that is to shine the light of truth into the darkness of mormonism.

DU – your example of your mormon attitude here has been very useful, especially your comments to me. Please continue posting about Los Lunas Rock, and the other scraps of evidence that even the authors of the web sites you cite state the items do not support the bom, along with all the other wonderful stuff from weekly worldish sites. And now that you finally know that I am not a PAID Theologian (or at least I hope you have figured that out by now). I take to heart the words of Paul:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (KJV)

For you see, when Jesus was challenged by satan in the wilderness, He didn’t say the revelation of God says but He said It is written, He relied upon the integrity of the word – so should we.

I hope you don’t fail continue to entertain us because of you lapse in skills. DU for all you do – the following is for you.

Bwahahahahaha ... hail Fluffy! [Not you, DU.]

The constant bleating against paid theologians is tiresome.

I remember months back I stated that my father-in-law was a Southern Baptist Director of Missions, my brother-in-law is a preacher with a doctorate in Biblical Greek, and my pastor had just completed his doctorate.

The skills of these three fine men were ridiculed. And it was asked why two of them would get higher degrees of learning, did they do it for their own pride?

I patiently explained that they did it out of a personal conviction that to greater understand the truth of the Bible they are walking closer with God and as their roles as pastors, they hoped to draw others closer to God as well.

This ridicule and derision is an old tactic, Godzilla. I’m sorry that you were plagued in such a tiresome manner.

But, I thank you for exposing the truth for those that want to see it.

Yours in Christ,
PYW

One of my (oft broken) rules is to never argue with crazy people. It really DOES NOT MATTER how many facts you present to DU, he will reject each and everyone of them. That’s why I gave up on him.

Besides, as I pointed out, DU’s disgust of paid clergy is contradicted by Joseph Smith’s “Revelation” that tithing was needed so he and Sidney Rigdon could feed at the trough in rather large fashion with a salary after their pecuniary debacle at Kirtland. Much of the Nauvoo land was later in Smith’s name, we know this because Emma and the Reformed church ended up with it after his death, so paid clergy wasn’t exactly abhorrent to the Patriarch. Those kinds of facts are pretty hard for DU to suppress, yet he will try.

Hey DU, I still can’t find an active link to the Kirtland ledger! Help me out!

Godzilla, DU’s slanderous lies about you is shameful, but as you already know, this kind of behavior is common among those who belong to cults. Mormons don’t have any problem telling lies, especially when it comes to defending their false religion. In fact, as we’ve learned on these Mormon threads, they are taught to lie for the sake of advancing their false religion. (See Mormon lies http://www.mrm.org/topics/evangelism-issues/ten-lies-i-told-a-mormon-missionary). It’s understandable that they would feel the need to lie, after all, their BOM is based on lies and the only way to defend a lie is to lie about it. How much more simple life would be for them if they just followed the Word of God.

By the way, even if you did get paid as a minister of the gospel, according the the scriptures, there is certainly nothing wrong with that. In 1 Timothy 5:17-18 it says, “The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain, and “The worker deserves his wages”.

Here’s what the Bible has to say about people who are falsely accused from people like DU:

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” (Matt. 5:11,12 NIV)

Godzilla, you are blessed!

On the other hand, the Bible doesn’t speak too kindly regarding liars and slanderers like what we’ve seen DU do:

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV) “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor *SLANDERERS* nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

(Revelation 21:7-8 NIV) “He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and *ALL LIARS*-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

DU, something for you to think about.

This is a lesson in mormonism, people caught in mormonism – especially multigenerational mormons – have a religious – domestic – heritage – pressure to believe in mormonism, no matter what the facts are. They will believe the lie because the consequences of the truth are too overwhelming due to the societal pressure.

That is the crux of why they refuse to believe the truth.

We were studying John Chapter 5 last night in a small group study with my church.

After Christ healed the man on the sabbath and told him to pick up his mat and walk, the authorities were furious because Christ had healed him on the sabbath (and Christ told him to pick up his mat, which they Pharisees considered "work").

Christ went after the false teachers - with both barrels. Many people, even today, mistakenly believe Christ was this overly gentle, almost feminized creature. He was is merciful to the repentant - but He is fierce to those who refuse to believe the truth.

He lambastes the teachers of the law - and lays them flat in John 5: 16-45.

Still, they refused to believe Him.

So it is for those whose hearts have turned to stone.


	Only WORLDS? I can destroy a SOUL!!! (Just ask LeGrande)

You Said: All –
This is a little synopsis of DU’s recent personal attack on my character.

I have never launched a personal attack on your character, I have pointed out that you at one point claimed to be a paid minister (you said you were a minister), and when asked how much you make all I got were smart-alic answerers, that followed by your focus on Farms being a "paid ministry" well if you can't see the connection, you're blind.

Here was your claim about FARMS "FARMS has been on the LDS payroll since its inception." Which has been proven to be a lie.

You Said: I believe I have been very patient with DU, but some time you have to let them play out on their own to see the real deal.

I believe I have been vary patient with you too... and the real deal is your actions do not meet up with what you are saying.

If you truly believed that reading and praying about the Book of Mormon would net people an answer from God you should be all for it. You have not taken that position, therefore it appears that you do not believe people will get a negative answer in spite of your assertions to the contrary.

You Said: Some how DU believes that if a minister receives pay as a minister that is REALLY BAD and is the ultimate insult.

Actually, the only reason I care is that some anti's like yourself post huge posts that are all over the map and when no one can succinctly refute you, you claim to be proven "right". When in reality you are proven to be verbose and unorganized, not "right".

You Said: So lets review the highlights.

Oh, this ought to be good Quote mining from FR, I sure hope you include links (otherwise what you are doing is obvious").

You Said: I will only point out DU’s paragraphs and mine stand-alone.

Yeah, you edit by selection... Not exactly surprising

You Said: It all started out on a dark and stormy night (somewhere in the world anyway):

Can you prove that? (chuckle)

You Said: Remember post 1019 above, he didn’t. Did that stop him, no he thought he was on a roll. To greyfoxx39 he said:

DU Said - I have been wrong before, that's why I asked for clarification, and instead got obfuscation from the king of lizards...

Godzilla means king of lizards, it was a clever word play on your name and apparently, I have to explain it to you... GODZILLA KING OF LIZARDS MONSTER GROWLING NOISE DOLL

You Said: DU Said - Absolute truth, that comes from God. Godzilla said he was a paid theologian, and now he is hiding that. Why do you think he might do that? Why is he attacking FAIR based on that they are paid, and then refusing to answer that question on this very thread? do you think he might have some reason for hiding it here.

For several threads you have been saying you are a Theologian, you have complained that I am not, questioned my attendance at seminary and said that it was not the same thing real theologians go through. When asked you said you were a minister, knowing that that would imply for a job, you get "cagey" when asked about it and refuse to answer, this is known as a lie of omission.

Lying by omission

Lying by omission is when an important fact is omitted, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception. This includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. One may by careful speaking contrive to give correct but only partial answers to questions, thus never actually lying.

You have lied to me by omission, I have directly asked if you are indeed a paid minister and you have refused to supply or even correct the record, thus you are guilty of precisely the definition of lying by omission. I will from this point on state that you lied to me about your status for you have indeed been doing so by omission for some time.

You Said: DU Said - If Godzilla is hiding the truth here, what else is he willing to shade for his "Cause" can anyone trust him?

Since you have lied to me, the question answerers itself, and the answer is "No".

You Said: DU Said - Hey Godzilla, which is it, are you a paid theologian or not?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1329#1329 To which I got no reply, you should add, thus the lying by omission.

You Said: Now he is claiming that I said I was a paid theologian (revealed as a “Absolute truth, that comes from God”?).

Absolute truth comes from God what you have said sadly is not even close. You are still trying to make hay out of not answering a clearly phrased question, which is exactly the type of tactics I would expect from an anti Mormon. Is there any truth in you at all Godzilla?

You Said: Has anyone figured out what he failed to do yet?

Get you to tell the truth? Check your page?

You Said: The truth has not been hidden, but has already been presented at least once, but he doesn’t want to accept that.

Yeah, so your page does not say you are a paid minister, you have left stuff out before. You Said: To FastCoyote he crowed -
DU Said - Lastly, it was Godzilla (who is refusing to say if he is a paid theologian) who is saying that FAIR was paid for by the LDS church from the beginning. A statement which contravenes the facts so far presented.

OK, so we were discussing FARMS, my mistake... but you notice i am complaining that you now refuse to confirm your status? It's that lying by omission thing again.

You Said: DU Said - Who's puffy now? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1340#1340

The post was after all at almost two in the morning, it should have been fluffy, not puffy.

You Said: (Besides the part that the subject was FARM not FAIR - and its Fluffy, not puffy) Still pushing the claim that I am a paid theologian ( remember post 1019). But he continues to ignore the fact that I clearly told him I earlier was not receiving any pay for this, so it appears that he thinks I am embarrassed about it.

Ah yes, post # 1019, I notice you don't post a link...

Well, I did, I was coming down on you hard fro being a hypocrite, for some time you had been allowing yourself to be said to be a paid theologian (your words, I would have said minister), and now after refusing to answer directly, since on this very thread you are accusing a college which supports a religious site as being the definition of Filthy Lucre as found in Titus 1:11. as if no other College would support such a "religious" site! LOL! Virtually all religious colleges do!

You Said: To SkyPilot he said
DU Said - He's big (even bigger than my posts), He's bad (He has called me names a few times), he's mean (he has never apologized or admitted that he was wrong even when proven so), He breaths fire, OK well not actual fire... (just having fun with the name...)

If you are going to pick a name like Godzilla, not know that it means "king of the lizards" and not be able to take a some size and fire breathing jokes, go grow a thicker skin, i still think the post was a funny one, and it was meant to be, Sigh you just can't discuss religion with some people.

You Said: DU Said - I believe Godzilla is antiquated, his views are steeped in tradition, and his methods do not take into account new findings, or modern methodology he is stuck on information being peer reviewed and not just whether or not it is true …………………... From my perspective, he denies the word of God in favor of the doctrines of men for money.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1347#1347

For any one who is interested, here is what Godzilla Edited out "(the Bible was not peer reviewed... a peer review does not make something true, ask the flat earth society, they have peers who review their stuff)."

This was a refutation of Godzilla's oft repeated refrain that the articles and indeed, the very scriptures of the LDS church have not been "peer reviewed" (Neither was the Bible, so?) God does not have a peer to review his works. I then followed with the following sentence "You can decry my words all you want, you can laud him all you want, I am after something no man can provide."

I am still after something no man can provide, and all the editing in the world will no change the fact that you keep asking for man's standards, Peer review, Doctorates, and councils, I keep calling for men to call upon God. I am content to let our record of posts available to anyone here Godzilla's posts, and Delphiuser's posts stand as my witness, that i am calling people to pray and at this point in time Godzilla is not.

You Said: Now what have I been doing during all of this (other than laughing my head off)? Waaaaay prior to DU’s blitzkrieg I had already made a second, very clear statement regarding my participation here in FR -

Where?

You Said: DU Said -Lurkers, Godzilla is a paid Theologian, he is paid to represent his church, I am an amateur, I get nothing for my service here.

I have to date repeatedly stated that you were paid, this was because A) you seem to have unlimited time to post while mine is limited by a Job, and family and B) You said you were a minister and never denied being paid while seeming to confirm it without actually doing so, See Lie of Omission.

You Said: Lurkers and other FReepers here. DU has pointed out in this post that he tells all that people like me are too stupid to use FR’s capabilities to search. Many months ago DU made this same accusation of me.

See, Fro months he has refused to give an accurate answer until now.

You Said: I told him that if that makes him feel better about it that he can believe what he wants to.

More weasel words, refusing to give a clear answer to clear questions, well done Godzilla, you have succeeded in not telling the truth yet again in a "Plausibly deniable way".

You Said: I’ve let him continue because it so humorous the way he tries to paint that on me – as if it was truth that it some how negates what I post here.

You have let this continue, Chuckle, the very definition of a Lie of Omission includes "failures to correct pre existing misconceptions". As for it negating what you post here, if you will lie in this or any other manner, it negates much of your posts here for who can believe you?

Godzilla, understand that I do not say that you are lying lightly, you have admitted in this post that you allowed this belief of mine to continue for "Many Months" you admit that you knew i held this opinion, you admit that you encouraged this opinion by refusing to deny it when asked plainly for months, and only when I began to use it against you on a thread where you were attacking others as being paid do you admit your perfidy, still worse you do it in a way calculated to say that I am some how a liar because you have deceived me, or that I cannot have received a revelation from God about the Book of Mormon because you were able to lie to me.

LOL! I never asked God about you because to be quite frank, you are not that important in my life. you have nothing to do with my salvation, you are a sign post that points the wrong way as witnessed here by your willingness to dig a pit for your friend, or at least one you have said you wished to save.

You Said: Now DU has accused me of being a paid Theologian again.

Yes, I did, for you deceived me, so?

You Said: This is applied in a manner that is equivalent to a personal attack.

LOL! If you refuse to answer a question fro months, you can expect a little lag time before the answer is acted upon, I daresay me lag was nothing like the lag while waiting for a clear answer, you your self said "I’ve let him continue..." You Said: So what should my response be?

The truth is always the best response, and not a belated "Many Months" later truth, but when it was first asked. Jesus would expect no less of you.

You Said: DU (and any interested Lurkers) please go to my profile page and see what I do for a living.

Yeah yeah yeah, I already linked to your page twice. It does not say you are not paid to preach, it merely says other things you do, besides, when did you edit your page last? (pardon us if we are skeptical, you have already lied by omission, commission is not much farther down the road.)

You Said: I am a volunteer minister at my church, in charge of multimedia and children’s ministries. I believe in the biblical call that I am a minister even if I don’t have the position, title or official college transcript. I don’t receive a single penny for my work on behalf of Christ. I post here to counter the false translation of Christian doctrine by many Mormons here – DU being one of them (evident in my many exchanges with him).

Ah, "Many Months" late and few dollars short, but this I trust is the truth at last?

As to "countering the False translations..." then you go to threads where Momrons are posting translations that are incorrect about other churches, or perhaps where we (Momrons) go and post incorrect translations of the Bible? No? Try telling the truth, you go onto threads that Mormons will be mentioned on, and say uncomplimentary things about them and their founders, and their religion to try to start a fight. Go on, admit it, you'll feel better stating the obvious truth.

You Said: My through my study of God’s Word, the bom and prayer, I can testify to every one here that the Spirit of God has shown to me that the bom is a fake document, written by a false prophet we’ve been warned about in scripture. Put the book of mormon to the test – is it a real historical document telling us about Jew who live in America, feel free to expand your search - since there is no valid evidence of such presence.

I see that you have stopped saying no evidence (since I keep presenting this nonexistent evidence and it gets embarrassing for you, now it's valid evidence. Well, the Atheists find no valid evidence for God, so I guess it's up to what is "valid evidence" now isn't it.

You Said: The Bereans studied the scriptures to verify Paul’s teachings – and were commended for it.

Yet, I don't find you actually encouraging people to study the Book of Mormon, after the many times I have pointed out that if you had actually received a message from God saying the Book of Mormon was not true, you should be encouraging everyone to read and pray so they too can receive that message, yet your attempt here is well lukewarm at best.

You Said: Your eternal life is too precious to place solely upon a subjective burning of the bosom.

That was just sad. It does not even meet with the Test put forth by John in First John 4:1-3

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You kind of forgot, to testify of Jesus, I leave it to the Lurkers to read the scriptures above and see where you are from.

My testimony as it is posted on my web page at Free republic Here:

I know that my redeemer lives. I know that though I will grow old(er) and die, I will in my Flesh stand before him to be judged. I testify that Jesus Christ is my redeemer, My Judge, My God. I know that only through his grace can I be saved. I know this with every fiber of my being. I have put the Promises contained in the Book of Mormon at Moroni 10:4, and in First John 4:1-3 and Prayed to God about the Book of Mormon and was told that it was true and that Jesus was my savior and walked in the flesh on the earth. I am far from perfect. Any errors in my page here, or in my posts or anywhere else, are my mistakes, attribute not to God my faults for mine are many and he is perfect. Blame me if you must blame anyone for the imperfections of my works, but know this, I tried to do a Good work, My failings are my own, and not my masters.

Last of all, I testify to you that Jesus lives! The bonds of death and hell cannot prevail against him nor against any who he calls his in the last day, my hope is to be among them and to have him wash me clean that I may enter in and dwell with him forever.

In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

You Said: Don’t buy a used car from J. Smith.

That's your close? Don't buy a used car...

Indeed many false prophets have Gone out into the world, they are those who tell you what truth is, testify to you of it, and don't find the time to mention, let alone testify of Jesus Christ, now what kind of testament is that?

I have a lot of flaws, some I am more painfully aware of than others, but trust me on this, I have more than are apparent on this forum, lots more. But at least I testify of Jesus when I testify.

You Said: 1,190 posted on May 11, 2008 7:41:52 PM PDT by Godzilla (I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message.) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1190#1190

I'm not sure what you were planning to do with this, but since you are saying you are out of your mind, I'll just drop it there, with the link to a refutation of circular logic (my refutation, your logic) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1190#1190

You Said: Finally, DU made it up to this post and only went part way through it, stopping short of the comments above and left us with this – DU Said -I'll respond to the rest of your monster post later when I have time... 1,374 posted on May 14, 2008 4:06:14 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think") http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1374#1374

Take it from someone who knows massive postings your s are big and you wander over many topics while writing your posts. My time is limited, I'm posting now with my now almost three month old on my arm asleep, and he wakes up when I try to put him down to get some sleep myself.

You Said: When he did finish the reply DU called me a liar –

How perceptive of me, i must have finally found the posts where you admit to not being paid after spending all that time alluding to being paid.

You Said: DU Said “Been there, seen that." I went right after you said you were a minister on another thread, I thought it was interesting that you didn't mention that, even though it seems to be a big part of your public persona here. That said, personal pages can contain almost anything, and can be changed at any time.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2013341/posts?page=1462#1462

Well, they can and I have seen lots of "stuff" on personal pages, So?

You Said: Ladies and gentlemen of FR who may be reading this post – and especially you DU as you have served a worthwhile object lesson in mormonism.

And you a worthwhile lesson in what an anti will do to "make his point" (lie).

You Said: In addition to not checking my profile, you had the answer as far back as at least January 2008 (the “other thread” from above) from this post -

I check profiles as a matter of course, you find some neat stuff that way... You also see how long someone has been a FReeper, I believe I looked at your page quite a while ago, but honestly, it was not that memorable so I could not prove it.

You Said: Evangelicals Against Mitt January 21, 2008 10:02:30 PM PST · 458 of 3,072 Godzilla to DelphiUser

DU Said -Some of us are to paid to come on this forum and bash. I believe you stated earlier that you are a professional theologian, I am not, I have a day job.

I never said I was a professional theologian, but if it makes you feel better to think that, then be my guest. BTW, where’s my paycheck then.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1950542/posts?page=458#458

I believe the beginning of our little misunderstanding is Post 360 wherein the following is exchanged:
U Said: High sounding, but deceptive. Your ‘seminary’ training, if compatible with other Mormons, consisted of a theology classes taken during your high school years (hence 4 year). My equivalent experience – 30+ years.

2 Tim. 3: 7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

I could argue my credentials, the only reason I listed them was you said I had none (you were wrong) but I don't believe years of study (Even though I have them) can equal spiritual experience and that, I have had, knowledge gained by dint of cracking books is great, but pales in comparison to revelation from God. If you know so much, why am I handily wining this debate? I am making you look foolish, because You make unsubstantiated assertions and I prove them wrong, you tell me what I believe, and I prove that wrong too. This is funny.

U Said: Attending does not equal study or knowing

But having their ministers try to recruit me into their ministry because of my knowledge does. (man you are batting ZERO today.)

I Said: While on a two year mission to Taiwan I graduated from a Buddhist monastery run by the translator for the living Buddha in Taiwan, and I read at 1500 WPM with measured 92% comprehension rate, I love to study religions. You?

U Said: That might have something to do with the price of tea in china, but it doesn’t indicate you’ve know Christian doctrine. I have looked at the teachings of Mormonism over the past 20 years, have a copy of the BOM that I’ve read on my book shelf and have engaged in discussions like this for over 30 years.

I have been a Mormon for more than your 30 years, I have suffered the ignorant, misinformed, ill advised attacks from every preachers son in every town we moved to (which is a lot of towns), I have had co-workers ask me questions that their mother would have made them wash their mouths out with soap if she'd heard it. I have been in more discussions like this than you can possibly know, and My faith is intact for God sustains me. I have taught and baptized orthodox Jews and ministers of other faiths, why? is it because I am some great bastion of cerebral knowledge? Is it because I am smoother, faster, or slicker? No, it is because I have been called of God to do his work by the laying on of hands and by the authority he has placed here on the earth, have I done these things? Yes, I have because Jesus was guiding my lips, and my hands. I do not fear your 30+ years, or your paid ministry, I am called of God, I will go and do that which he wants me to do and I will fear no blogger, I will be as kind as I can while refuting your every misstatement about my church, rest assured if I wanted to, I could haul out the big guns, and you would probably cease to respond to me, or I'd get banned or some such, but I am content to just shoot your six-shooter out of your hand every time you draw. Why am I content to do this? Simple, having a discussion like this leads lurkers to read my page. Some who read my page will ask for a Book of Mormon. Some of those will read it. Some of those will pray about it, Most of those will get Baptized. Thanks for helping me to move the work along.
I believe that after this you started "allowing me" to believe you were a paid minister, thus your deception goes back to January of last year...

U Said: DU believed a lie he justified to himself to account for me.

I believed your lie...

U Said: Even in the face of my stating I was not a professional theologian, nor paid – he carried his lie to fruition (4 months later) – irregardless of the stated facts and truth available to evaluate.

You did not clarify until may what you knew I had misunderstood, and you had encouraged that misunderstanding back in January. Thus it is a lie of omission as I said earlier.

BTW, irregardless, not what you would think it is, the two negatives render it a positive similar to the construct "not without regard", just thought you'd want to know...

U Said: This is a lesson in mormonism, people caught in mormonism – especially multigenerational mormons – have a religious – domestic – heritage – pressure to believe in mormonism, no matter what the facts are.

I really hate to disappoint you, but my Mom and Dad were raised Methodist...

U Said: They will believe the lie because the consequences of the truth are too overwhelming due to the societal pressure.

Actually, My family was disowned fro years from my maternal grandmother's side of the family for joining... Again, you are batting Zip, your "Characterizations might play well, in the youth class, but in reality, well, your barking up the wrong tree.

U Said: DU wanted to believe I was a despised PAYED theologian, in an effort to prop his presentation at the expense of my credibility, but in doing so he ignored my statements to the contrary (my witness) and other facts such as one mouse click to view my profile, as I have done to many here in FR.

First, it's paid theologian, second, I could care less if you are paid or not, you are deluded for thinking that. Your page does not preclude being a paid theologian, many people moonlight, and you certainly hinted at tit and I did not want to call you a liar.

U Said: He chose to believe a lie and and convinced himself as his postings above make clear.

Your postings make clear that you encouraged and even fed a misunderstanding, making you a Liar by omission.

U Said: Mormons believe the fiction that is the bom and the false prophet Joseph Smith because to do otherwise would strip away their self defense mechanism and realize how foolish those beliefs are.

Believing a biblically sound direct revelation from God foolish?

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
You go right ahead and follow the Arm of flesh call for peer reviews over revelation, call for analysis instead of testimony, decry those who believe God because of a witness, go on, I can't stop you, the Bible tells me so.

U Said: So too DU held those beliefs about me to bolster himself.

LOL! Trust me, I don't need you to bolster my spirit, nor to bolster my ego both are doing fine with or without you.

U Said: Today’s mormonism fails to examine the whole article too. In today’s modern age, the stories that Joseph Smith and successive prophets of mormonism in the past have passed off for so called truth, have been soundly disproved. As I have pointed out many times – the evidence is right under their noses –

Yeah, you have put stuff up (attacked us) and been shot down, you put something else up, and it's proven a forgery, it's the same story, I have been seeing it since high school, see my Post 360 on our prior thread U Said: - 4000+ changes to the bom alone – with out MS to check or verify – except two extant handwritten copies of the original ms.

4,000 Changes, see Why Were 4,000 Changes Made in The Book of Mormon? Which completely obliterates this line of argument, not only that, but Counting Punctuation and vowels (punctuation is needed to get to 4,000 changes) how many changes has the Bible been through? Care to explain The Johannine Comma now?

U Said: - Mormon scientists will admit (though less openly now that many have been excommunicated) there is no archaeological support to the bom, no anthropological support, no dna support, paleotological / botanical / metallurgical sport to the civilization listed in the bom.

ROTFLOL! I have repeatedly asked for one Active Mormon archeologist who says this, or proof that any archeologist was ever excommunicated for saying this, all I have is loud cricket recording so to this unsupported assertion, I reply with one of my own, this statement is a load a Bovine Scatological refuse.

U Said: - There are strong evidences that much of what wasn’t copied directly out of the KJV bibles (errors and all!) also came from other sources/books in existence at the time.

Knowing that it is a logical impossibility to prove a negative, I challenge you to prove the positive, and if you are thinking the Spaulding manuscript forget it, I have read what i could stand of it, not even close, next?

U Said: - Joseph Smith’s inclusion of the Johannian Comma in the JST (aka Inspired Version) translation of the bible.

So the inerrant bibles errors prove the BOM is errant? Huh?

U Said: Further scandalous and false translations of the Book of Breathing and the fraudulent Kinderhook plates show that Smith was not an inspired translator.

Joseph never translated the book of breathings, but a scroll with red on it that accompanied it (that scroll is believed destroyed in the Chicago fire). We have eyewitness accounts of the scroll, even news paper articles describing the scroll he translated and the book of breathings does not match the description, but I guess if you are desperate facts don't matter. As for the kinderhook plates, Joseph never even tried to translate them, and ignored them altogether we do have several articles saying the translation would soon be coming, but that was obviously speculation by editors, Joseph never promised such nor delivered such a translation, he ignored the Kinderhook plates.

U Said: One could go on regarding the open contradictions in the first vision story,

You mean differing accounts which emphasized different aspects to different audiences, but never contradicted each other? LOL you sir are no story teller!

U Said: lies concerning polygamy and his own adultery ( which resulted in one of the Three Witnesses being expelled from the Mormon church) and the other sordid parts of his life,

Yep, he had disagreements, yep some people left the church yes some of them said terrible things many came back and apologized saying they were wrong (their stories live on however without the honor of being reported as recanted).

U Said: how did DU put it - If JOSEPH SMITH is hiding the truth here, what else is he willing to shade for his "Cause" can anyone trust him?

GREAT! Don't trust Joseph, trust God, ask him who you can trust and go with that! If God tells you to be a methodist, and it's a revelation that meets with the Bible, go do that, Catholic? Same, Mormons? what are you crazy? (you guys just can't seem to be consistent on this, we can.)

U Said: Now one poster said DU’s insight to my line of employment as God derived. I don’t believe that.

I never said that.

U Said: But what I do see is an effort to discredit opposition who can and will challenge the propaganda of FARM and FAIR that forms so much of DU’s apologetic.

If there is any discredit, you bring it upon yourself.

U Said: And this is done in a fashion similar to FARMS and FAIR too.

Gee, that's the best compliment you ever gave me, those guys are smart!

U Said: Never the less, I am still here and will for the duration – hog hosing or not – to continue what I have done and that is to shine the light of truth into the darkness of Mormonism.

Ya got that backwards, we are shining the light on you, but I knew you'd see it that way...

U Said: DU – your example of your Mormon attitude here has been very useful, especially your comments to me.

Thanks, yours have been useful too, the pride, the arrogance the leaning to your own understanding not to mention the lying, very educational.

U Said: Please continue posting about Los Lunas Rock, and the other scraps of evidence that even the authors of the web sites you cite state the items do not support the bom, along with all the other wonderful stuff from weekly worldish sites.

I am not trying to "prove the Book of Mormon true", if I did then there would be no room for faith, but as you request, http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/15_loslunas.html

U Said: And now that you finally know that I am not a PAID Theologian (or at least I hope you have figured that out by now). Yes, you finally told the truth.

U Said: I take to heart the words of Paul:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (KJV)

Oh that you were actually speaking the word of truth, but you testify and do not mention Jesus, you lie to set a trap for people, you encorage men to judge by their own understanding and you do not encourage them to pray to God.

U Said: For you see, when Jesus was challenged by Satan in the wilderness, He didn’t say the revelation of God says but He said It is written, He relied upon the integrity of the word – so should we.

Yes, we should:First John 4:1-3
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Read the Book of Mormon, we will gladly Give you a copy. Try the Spirit in it according to the Bible. Read the Bible at the Same time, don't have one? We will Give you a Bible too. Compare the spirit in them both, then when you are ready, Pray to God (the God in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, for he is the same, don't believe that, fine just pray to the God of the Bible, he will testify of his word and once you get an answer, all our yammering here will be meaningless, you will know the truth for God will tell you, and he can't lie.

I have performed exactly this Test on the Book of Mormon and God gave me a testimony of the Book of Mormon, and at the same time he gave me a testimony of Jesus as my personal savior. What a wonderful fulfillment of First John 4:1-3.

U Said: I hope you don’t fail continue to entertain us because of you lapse in skills. DU for all you do – the following is for you.

That's OK, picture of Dog an all, I don't claim to be a "skillful" representative just a truthful one and when it comes down to it, would my fellow conservatives rather have a truthful if not so polished gospel or a skillfully and slickly delivered lie? I've seen slick and I don't want to emulate his "skill" as you seem to want to do.

Men and bretherin, if you have read this far, I commend you for your intestinal fortitude, go with God. Let his spirit testify to you of the truth in the Gospel, Yea, the Holy Ghost will testify to you of the truthfulness of all things, the gospel is true, Jesus is the only savior, Go with God