The Book of Enoch Chapter 46:1-2 [1] There I beheld the Ancient of days whose head was like white wool, and with him another, whose countenance resembled that of a man. His countenance was full of grace, like that of one of the holy angels. Then I inquired of one of the angels, who went with me, and who showed me every secret thing, concerning this Son of man; who he was; whence he was; and why he accompanied the Ancient of days. [2] He answered and said to me, This is the Son of man, to whom righteousness belongs; with whom righteousness has dwealt; and who will reveal all the treasures of that which is concealed: for the Lord of spirits has chosen him; and his portion has surpassed all before the Lord of spirits in everlasting uprightness."This is from the Section called The Book of Parables (37-71), also known as the Book of Similitudes, I have repeatedly pointed out that the phrase the son of Man as quoted by Jesus, and all the gospels use this phrase, this is a prophecy about the Savior, the book was available, the book was in use in the early church, Jude quotes from Enoch, the Catholic church left out a book that Jesus and all the apostles and the early church all considered scripture, but the Bible is complete, there is nothing to add, we kept out the plain and precious truths, don't you dare try to put them back in because they will destroy the dogma we have created of the TRINITY! You care about the Similitudes because parts of that scripture exactly match the book of Abraham as published by the LDS church, it would be a proof of Joseph smith's as a prophet of God that you can't stand to even contemplate, so you have to cling to this razor thin, illogical position which only makes sense if your perspective is "Joseph is a fraud, and anything that supports that is true and any fact that contradicts that presupposition is to be annihilated by any means possible."
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,I note how many "Mockers" there are here, and they're not the Mormons.
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having mens persons in admiration because of advantage.
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
1. pertaining to knowledge.IMHO, the creation of the Trinity was Gnosticism on flagrant display.
2. possessing knowledge, esp. esoteric knowledge of spiritual matters.
3. (initial capital letter) pertaining to or characteristic of the Gnostics. 4. (initial capital letter) a member of any of certain sects among the early Christians who claimed to have superior knowledge of spiritual matters, and explained the world as created by powers or agencies arising as emanations from the Godhead.
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.IMHO, You want people to choke on the meat, you seem to have a goal indeed of forcing any who are interested to learn at your pace and your way. Force is Satan's way.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:This seems to be a good place to end tonight, Godzilla, I challenge you to Do as you would have me do unto you, and call upon people to pray honestly to God and ask him for knowledge of the truth by reading a Book of Mormon with their bible and comparing the spirit of the two. IF you don't join me in calling for this prayerful exercise before the lord, you will stand revealed by your actions as a man who is opposed to the prayer of others, a man who wants others to listen to him instead of God, a man who is not a messenger of Christ.
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
As ALL can see; your ELEVEN pages of 'refutation' do NOT equal to a credible defense, but are spin, misdirection and obfuscation2.
Standard LDS responses to data put to them:
Shorthand |
Reference: |
|
|
1. How you interpret it is wrong... |
(Need a source) |
2. You are too ignorant to really understand it because you are not a member.... |
(Need a source) |
3. You're not qualified to judge because you're no LONGER a member... |
(Need a source) |
4. You are just a bigot for bringing the whole ugly truth to light ... |
(Need a source) |
5. Sos yer Mama! |
(Need a source) |
6. Laugh it all off and post some silly image. |
(Need a source) |
7. Jump down the rabbit hole; Alice! |
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1982682/posts?page=683#683 |
8. Bait & Switch |
(Need a source) |
9. The OTHER 'half' of the truth is what we are avoiding. |
(Need a source) |
10. "I Know It When I See It" |
(Need a source) |
11. Hand waving... |
(Need a source) |
12. YOU play defense for a while. |
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1982682/posts?page=944#944 |
13. HEE Hee hee... let's get the Calvinists and the Armenians fighting! |
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1994515/posts?page=15#15 |
14. GREAT FUN! Let's get the Catholics and the Protestants fighting! |
(Need a source) |
15. Huh? Did you say something? |
(Need a source) |
16. If I repeat this enough times some folks will be fooled into thinking it's true. |
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1997522/posts?page=2252#2252 |
17. Playing dumb. |
(Need a source) |
18. Refusing to answer because your ATTITUDE offends them. |
(Need a source) |
19. (Let's see if they'll fall for the 'Defend a freak' ploy.) |
(Need a source) |
20. And the MOST used... IGNORE what they posted and answer the question that SHOULD have been asked. |
http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8 |
21. Threatening other FReepers with legal action because they annoy you with facts. (E-Danite-ism) |
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2008967/posts?page=335#335 |
I want a FREE copy of whatever contains the description and COMMAND to follow your Temple Rites®.
and your each and every point has been refuted by me and others here many times, your points are neither true, nor original.
Aaah, yes, the good ol DU said so refutations LOL
Your insistence on using diminutives does not help your case,
Joey is diminutive, just matching the word with the person.
Pending prophecies of prophets however does obliterate the idea that all prophecy has ended and that there will be no more prophets. AS I said, the Bible has unfulfilled prophecies that speak of prophets in the last days, so there will still be prophets, I did not say that made Mormonism true, just not contradictory to scripture as your stance that there should not be prophets is.
Mormonisms problem with this is that the delayed prophecies had a time frame specified by which they will be accomplished. Secondly, the others in no fashion can be futuristic such as the great civil war prophecy.
I have never tried to "prove anyone's religion was inferior to Mormonism" if you thought that was what I am doing you have been laboring under a false assumption.
Been putting Christianity down lately and oh, you were the one who told me you could destroy religions and religious beliefs.
To get to 4,000 you have to count the addition of verses, punctuation and formatting
That is admittedly including the poor spelling and grammar which is hard to justify since the witnesses and scribes description of the translation process was very regimented and literally word for word. Still doesnt justify the multiple other changes, such as the one to continently allow blacks the priesthood.
The bile has had at least as many "changes" if you want to count those, Hebrew does not even have vowels, do we get to count those as additions, (that would be on par with he ridiculous 4,000 changes claim)
Sure, but we can go to extant ms and through textural comparison of the 30,000+ ms in multiple languages identify the erroneous copies. There are two handwritten copies of the bom and those do not justify the many changes to the writing over the years.
The bible is claimed to be Inerrant which means (as with all absolute statements if one instance can be found where the statement is wrong, then the whole statement is wrong.
Where is that specifically stated? If so, that is in the original ms, which doesnt transfer to the translations.
most correct, as Joseph said elsewhere, means has the fullness of the gospel and will lead men to God.
Correct adj accurate or without errors.
The Johannine Comma
Already addressed and known about it for longer 30+ years. Translation does not equal original ms, that is the definition. But then Joey included it with his Inspired Translation, if he included it, then how inspired is the bom?
There are more "Errors" in the bible, this is just the best known, and even one such error disproves the "inerrant" claim.
OK, Book of Abraham, Kinderhook plates, Greek Psalter and the lost 116 pages.
Conversely, Mormons do not claim Joseph was perfect, in fact, we know he had many foible and flaws... just like the prophets of old.
At least the prophets of old got their prophecies right.
The majority are verses, punctuation and spelling changes, so?
Ill address this later again and post the other major changes.
Word for word does not mean letter for letter, and spelling was not as formal as it is now, many variants were considered correct. The grammar was Joseph's own.
Sorry, that is not the testimony of the witnesses and scribes. The word or phrase would not go away until properly written down.
Ah, the White for Pure, in the 1800's no one worried about white being racist, it meant pure, when used like this, so rather than be called racist, the church (with modern day revelation to back them up) changed the word, there have been, I believe three whole word changes, Protestants have removed whole books from the Bible that the catholics put together.
Ah the lets dump on the catholics red herring. Those books are still there why hasnt the mormon church canonized them? Until they do, your point is moot.
Then you attempt the Brush of racism, which just does not matter, the gospel is for all god's children, in the day you speak of most churches were doing things that would be considered racist today, I have been in a baptist church that had a balcony that was for the persons of color in those days.
Ok, now deflect to the Baptists. LOL, that change remarkably appeared when civil rights law suits were being developed and the prophet had a revelation just like in 1870.
Mormons go to God with their questions, you go to manuscripts...
So why have a canon, particularly one that contains the so-called fullness of the gospel.
Joseph never finished the JST, and never said it was inerrant.
Sorry, you are obfuscating a defined fact of history.
Bruce R. McConkie claims:
... at the command of the Lord and while acting under the spirit of revelation, the Prophet corrected, revised, altered, added to, and deleted from the King James Version of the Bible to form what is now commonly referred to as the Inspired Version of the Bible.... the marvelous flood of light and knowledge revealed through the Inspired Version of the Bible is one of the great evidences of the divine mission of Joseph Smith (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, pp. 351-52).
Doctrine and Covenants 73:4, Joseph Smith was commanded to "continue the work of translation until it be finished."
In the History of the Church, under the date of February 2, 1833, we find this statement by Joseph Smith: "I completed the translation and review of the New Testament, on the 2nd of February, 1833, and sealed it up, no more to be opened till it arrived in Zion" (History of the Church, vol. 1, p.324).
Here is where the whole inspired translation was stated by Joey that it was finished
As for us using it, apparently you don't know that the Bible as published by the Church includes the JST as foot notes, we just don't publish the whole thing because we'd get our behinds sued off (I guess that would suit you.)
Robert J. Matthews points out that "every reference to it in the Doctrine and Covenants and the History of the Church calls it a translation" (BYU Studies, Autumn 1968, p.3)
I spent a week at Cumron, Nag Hammadi in 2000, they commonly piece together books from pieces of differing scrolls, because often parts of each scroll are unreadable.
Nag Hammadi is not the Dead Sea Site, and I spent weeks in Washington DC, that doesnt make me the president.
Yep, that's how the workers there said they put things together. Do you deny that before the Dead Sea Scrolls many "experts" were claiming that the whole book of Enoch was written later?
You are having challenges reading things contextually DU, I stated that all the sections except Simlitudes were present at DSS and that that component was written later and later compiled with the other parts.
I ask you since this was a cannon of the Ethopic and early church, and in use before that since it was part of the "Scriptures" in the Dead Sea Scrolls when and how exactly did someone slip in a whole new section, pages and pages and nobody noticed?
You are the ancient text expert, having spent a whole week at Nag Hammadi. You will need to cite an official canon listing 1Enoch as being in the canon technically (a term you would understand with your extensive one week at Nag Hammadi) this would be affiliated with the OT. There is no canon (LXX or MT) that includes 1 Enoch. Though cited by some NT (Jude primarly) and anti-Nicean writers, it was never a canon. The copts in Ethiopia are not necessarily represenative of the whole church and includes other documents rejected by the church at large. Once again, let your prophet speak and announce that these documents are the ones taken out by the eeeevil catholics and canonize them. Otherwise you are just wasting electrons.
Secondly, just because documents were found at the dss site, does not automatically make them part of the canon. Your ward library probably has a lot more books there than the bom, D&C and POGP. Are those other documents part of your canon too.
The Johannine Comma ..No one complained, "Orthodox" Christians didn't notice because they didn't even use the scriptures in it any more (why is that) and those who were using it have no record of a controversy, because they never saw a change, ergo there was no change.
Your citation links to Metzger, who documents the case and discussions elsewhere, you d do well to see that when modern scholarship with extended MS to review flagged this early on hence why it is italicized. This section shows how UNISPIRIED Joey was (once again)
Joseph Smith not only made many unnecessary changes in the Bible, but he also failed to see the places where the text of the Bible really needed correction. There is one statement in the King James Version, 1 John 5:7 and 8, which scholars are certain is an interpolation. In modern versions of the Bible this statement has been removed to conform with the ancient Greek manuscripts. Following is a comparison of the text in the King James Version and that found in the Revised Standard Version:
King James Version: 1 John 5:6-8: "6. This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
Revised Standard Version: 1 John 5:6-8: "6. This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. 7. And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8. There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree."
The Book of Enoch Chapter 46:1-2 This is from the Section called The Book of Parables (37-71),
Martin McNamara writes: "No fragment of any part of Parables has been found in Qumran. For this, and for other reasons besides, some scholars doubt its pre-Christian and Jewish character. J. T. Milik maintains that it was composed in the second or third century of our era. However, contemporary scholarship tends to reckon the parables Jewish, and to assign their composition to the first century of the Christian era." (Intertestamental Literature, p. 71)
Kinda hard to quote a writing that wasnt even in existence at the time. Daniel and Isaiah were in existence and provide the scriptural background for Christs quotes.
Jude quotes from Enoch, the Catholic church left out a book that Jesus and all the apostles and the early church all considered scripture, but the Bible is complete, there is nothing to add, we kept out the plain and precious truths, don't you dare try to put them back in because they will destroy the dogma we have created of the TRINITY!
Once again you living prophets and seers over the ages have had plenty of opportunities to canonize these works and rectify the removal of the plain and precious parts. This has not been done, ergo you attack is simple hot air.
You care about the Similitudes because parts of that scripture exactly match the book of Abraham as published by the LDS church, it would be a proof of Joseph smith's as a prophet of God that you can't stand to even contemplate, so you have to cling to this razor thin, illogical position which only makes sense if your perspective is "Joseph is a fraud, and anything that supports that is true and any fact that contradicts that presupposition is to be annihilated by any means possible."
Please do a comparison of the two to PROVE to me the EXACT match of the boa to the Similitudes portion of 1Enoch. This should prove interesting
I am even going to include what i said last time:
Argument by repetition, not supported by modern textural critical analysis.
Daniel was quoting Enoch, so was numbers, go read them with your blinders off, and you will see they are obviously referencing a book they expect us to be familiar with.
Again, your wisdom gleaned from one week at Nag Hammadi is showing off. You need to look up a term Pseudographic writings; The earliest components were written hundreds of years AFTER Daniel. That's why it was in the Dead sea scrolls, I mean yeah, they always include unimportant documents in with the scriptures when they are storing them up for the eternities...
Multiple lines of evidence first off as pointed out earlier, Similitudes portion is not at the dss site. Secondly, the canonical books of the OT had commentaries written by the Qumran community, these included the Pentateuch, the Prophets (including Daniel), the Psalms, and Job. There are no evidence of commentaries for any of the Enoch materials, or anything else that would suggest it was considered canon (or defiled the hands). It is absent from the LXX and was excluded from the list in Jamnia. All evidence points away from the Jews believing it to be scripture.
I have read much, I have not read everything, I am an amateur,
Ill agree to that point.
what I have read indicates that the Jews read the book of Enoch, and would have been familiar with the prophecies contained in it, thus, I ask you why would Jesus ask this question: "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" if the prophecy had not yet been made,
The term Son of Man is found 74 times in the KJV in the Prophets, (101 times in the entire KJV). That is evidence of adequate existing prophetic support for Jesus question.
why did Jude Quote Enoch?
First, Jude didnt cite a from the Similitude portion. Secondly, the components that became 1 Enoch eventually were read and would be recognized. Thirdly, citation does not equate scriptural status to them, otherwise one would have to canonize the writing of Greek authors Paul cited. The context shows that Jude was trying to make a point, and the citation used supported it.
So you say Gnostic thought did not penetrate and have influence in the early church? Gnostic
1. pertaining to knowledge.
2. possessing knowledge, esp. esoteric knowledge of spiritual matters.
3. (initial capital letter) pertaining to or characteristic of the Gnostics.
4. (initial capital letter) a member of any of certain sects among the early Christians who claimed to have superior knowledge of spiritual matters, and explained the world as created by powers or agencies arising as emanations from the Godhead. IMHO, the creation of the Trinity was Gnosticism on flagrant display.
Note Sect identified as heresy. Gnostics also taught that Jesus was an emanation and did not have a physical body. This included Docetism teaches that Jesus' physical body was only an aberration or an illusion. Hence the warning in 1 John, as the Gnostics would not accept that as truth. In fact, the teachings of Gnosticism are more closely aligned with mormonism than Christianity.
Sure, there are entire cities in South America that no one has bothered to explore and document scientifically.
Sorry to disappoint you DU, the GA is on record as rejecting the central American theories of the lands of mormon.
LOL! Mormon archaeologists agree that there is no evidence of the BOM? Show me one active Mormon archaeologist who says there is no evidence for the Book of Mormon, just one. (I honestly don't think you can)
"The statement that the Book of Mormon has already been proved by archaeology is misleading. The truth of the matter is that we are only now beginning to see even the outlines of the archaeological time-periods which could compare with those of the Book of Mormon. How, then, can the matter have been settled once and for all? That such an idea could exist indicates the ignorance of many of our people with regard to what is going on in the historical and anthropological sciences." (Christensen in U.A.S. Newsletter, no. 64, January 30, 1960, p.3).
... We conclude, therefore, that the Book of Mormon remains completely unverified by archaeology. The claims Mormon missionaries have made are fallacious and misleading (Archeology and the Book of Mormon, by Hal Hougey, rev. ed., 1976, pp.4-6, 8, 9, 14).
Dee Green, assistant professor of Anthropology at Weber State College, has written an article for Dialogue.
Having spent a considerable portion of the past ten years functioning as a scientist dealing with New World archaeology, I find that nothing in so-called Book of Mormon archaeology materially affects my religious commitment one way or the other, and I do not see that the archaeological myths so common in our proselytizing program enhance the process of true conversion....
The first myth we need to eliminate is that Book of Mormon archaeology exists. Titles on books full of archaeological half- truths, dilettanti on the peripheries of American archaeology calling themselves Book of Mormon archaeologists regardless of their education, and a Department of Archaeology at BYU devoted to the production of Book of Mormon archaeologists do not insure that Book of Mormon archaeology really exists. If one is to study Book of Mormon archaeology, then one must have a corpus of data with which to deal. We do not. The Book of Mormon is really there so one can have Book of Mormon studies, and archaeology is really there so one can study archaeology, but the two are not wed. At least they are not wed in reality since no Book of Mormon location is known with reference to modern topography. Biblical archaeology can be studied because we do know where Jerusalem and Jericho were and are, but we do not know where Zarahemla and Bountiful (nor any other location for that matter) were or are. It would seem then that a concentration on geography should be the first order of business, but we have already seen that twenty years of such an approach has left us empty-handed (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Summer 1969, pp.76-78).
"[It appears that the Book of Mormon] had no place in the New World whatsoever . . . [It] just doesn't seem to fit anything . . . in anthropology [or] history . . . . It seems misplaced." Dr. Ray Metheny, Professor of Anthropology, BYU. Address at the Sixth Annual Sunstone Theological Symposium, Salt Lake City, 8/25/84.
According to your standard of people of a faith can't do Archeology that supports that faith and have it be valid, only archeology performed by Muslims is valid. Therefore there is no archaeological evidence supporting the Bible, also there is no evidence that the Jews ever lived in Israel...
You are wrong on the issue of no evidence of the Jews living in Israel. Your holy book the bom clearly states that as a fact of history (and obviously interpreted as such by the leadership of the mormon church, otherwise they wouldnt be spending so much money to prove the point) of the vast civilizations here in America. Evidence point to the fact that they were never here to begin with. If the story stated as fact in the bom is a lie then highly likely the rest of the book is a lie too making the author a liar.
I seem to remember that "Orthodox Christianity was once on their side, wait! that would mean you were wrong once...
Yes, the modern science you claim I dont include in my evaluations was proven to be true. Modern science has disproved the bom and has openly stated it is a fraudulent presentation of the history of Americas.
All the studies start from a flawed premise, that the DNA of Indians is a pure sample, The Book of Mormon itself talks of the Lehi's descendants marrying people who were not descendants of Joseph, or even Jewish, a true DNA study would show all sorts of links, but nothing conclusive because the "Indians" are a polyglot of DNA. ..
Sorry, youve accepted the obfuscation of the professional apologists at FARMS/FAIR. Fact is that there have been multiple methods used and a statistically large enough sampling to show that the Indians are not Semitic in origin but mongoloid. Semitic dna markers are common to that particular race of people, not to mongoloids. The scientific analysis has shown over these multiple methods and techniques as well as standard anthropology methods decades older that the likely hood that the native American population came from the middle east is essentially non-existant (nothing is absolute in statistics, but with 96% mongoloid markers and less than 1% any thing that could be arguably semetic the Indians are descendents from the asian mongolids. BTW, similar methods were used to confirm the African tribes Jewish ancestry recently.
Accidental rhymes happen, accidental poems do not.
And the so-called examples are hardly poetry. However, to be truly chiastic it should appear in the origional language. Oh dear, gone with the wind.
Nephi details that he reads and writes many languages in the book of Nephi, if you had read the earlier article that you decried because it's from a FARMS site, you'd know that they have found writings in Israel of Unquestionable Hebrew origin from the Time of Lehi written in Hebrew with letters from other languages mixed in, just like the Los Lunas stone.
Self verifying argument a questionable document providing proof for a questionable evidence. Furthermore, depending upon which website you are choosing to cite now, believes it not to be Hebrew but Phoenician, which incorporated semetic writing styles. But they migrated to the east to get to America, not the west.
Of course the Mormons who visited this guy are not reported as saying yep, this proves the book of Mormon, and of course this guy having another theory wouldn't report it if they did, so?
They said it wasnt the correct age or language and nothing else identifying it to be mormon.
Keep reading, Carbon dating of the wood case, and the letters don't match, they are dispelling that "theory" that was put fourth. You need to read more than the headlines and don't stop when you hit one you like, but read the whole article...
Still doesnt mean that an older artifact wasnt placed there as the article and links make clear.
Yeah, they were researching the "Mound builders" (have you read about the earthen works the Nephites built as defenses?)
No building foundations, no bom temples, no steel swords and like, etc, infact these were primitive peoples, not the highly advanced civilizations of the bom.
What are you expecting from an area that was completely destroyed, a wall with Nephi was here? painted on it?
Cities and civilizations that have been completely destroyed have left behind volumes of artifacts and foundation information even trash heaps/dumps, loaded with artifacts. Sorry, DU, keep digging might need 150 more years to find a real artifact.
So if one expert does not agree with an explanation it's false? There goes the archeological evidence for the Bible... the Moslem expert says he has a better explanation...
And others have other explanations too. However, when one uses reverse engineering to concoct the story, it must be a very flimsy evidenced indeed.
If you read the web site, it fits exactly...
Sure, when you provide screened and tailored information and not the whole.
LOL! We know which vowels Joseph inserted,a nd the natives
Oh wait from the bom and the boa. LOL fallacy of self reference again.
and what the locals called it... Hey, they aren't Mormons, maybe you'll accept their pronunciation...
That is not what the locals called it, iirc it was Nihm. And why was it not written in reformed hieroglyphics? The "plausible candidate" is a trickle of water, not a river.
It was destroyed in an earthquake... as recorded in the Book of Mormon, a lot of cities were.
And rubble is still present that can identify the site as a city! The artifacts dont disappear, but become more probably to be found.
in the face of much evidence the blind believers of anti Mormonism will grasp at any straw they can...
Archeologists, Genetic Anthropologists, Comparative Linguists, Metallurgists, and Microbiologists are literally flocking to the mormon church in droves, being baptized all over the place!! The experts are continually publishing scores of academic papers in peer-reviewed journals, breaking the revolutionary news to the world, of the novel insights that the Book of Mormon is contributing to those disciplines!! Oh, wait -- hold on a minute; that's not exactly 100% accurate..... In fact, the exact opposite is true.
Show where the prophet said he was truthful.. Did we buy stuff from him to get it off the market, yes, so?
He also by his silence could have by his prophetic authority declared once and for all that the documents were a forgery and denounced him as such. No, they were afraid these documents were TRUE and sought to get possession to hide them from the world. Really inspired.
as for you never citing him, have you ever referred to him as a treasure hunter? if so, you've cited people citing Hoffman, and that's how this crap lives on. Sloppy research because that's what you wanted to believe.
Doesnt matter, his fraud discredited his other works just like joeys fraud discredits his other works.
The tanners purchased some of his works as well...
And true to their integrity, they denounced him as the fraud he was.
That would be the salamander letter... as for court documents, he was hired to dig, he dug, he was after all a poor backwoods boy of 14 when this all started, remember?
Official court documents have been found to verify it. Smith himself admitted it (1827 Account of Joseph Smith, Sr., and Joseph Smith, Jr., given to Willard Chase, as related in his 1833 affidavit. Joseph Smiths New York Reputation Reexamined, Rodger I. Anderson, Signature Books, 1990, p. 121.)
1827 Account of Martin Harris given to the Rev. John A. Clark, as related in his 1842 book Gleanings by the Way, W.J. & J.K. Simon, pp. 222ff. [Microfilm copy].
There was no escape attempt,
A jailed individual with a hand gun and opening fire at the crowd, thats an escape attempt.
The Newspaper was declare a public nuisance and in full accordance with the law of the day, it was destroyed by the duly sworn officers of the law of the day.
The characterization of the printing press as a nuisance, and its subsequent destruction, is another matter. The common law authorities on nuisance abatement generally, and especially those on summary abatement, were emphatic in declaring that abatement must be limited by the necessities of the case, and that no wanton or unnecessary destruction of property could be permitted. A party guilty of excess was liable in damages for trespass to the party injured . there was no legal justification in 1844 for the destruction of the Expositor press as a nuisance. Its libelous, provocative, and perhaps obscene output may well have been a public and a private nuisance, but the evil article was not the press itself but the way in which it was being used. Consequently, those who caused or accomplished its destruction were liable for money damages in an action of trespass. (Dallin H. Oaks, then a professor at the University of Chicago Law School. Utah Law Review, Summer 1965, pages 890-891)
The town even offered to pay for the press. I also note that you have never shed a tear over the Mormon presses (plural) that were destroyed as people tried to keep the Book of Mormon from being printed your concern seems a bit one sided.
A little late for that, which by the act indicates a degree of guilt.
Lastly, Polygamy was legal in that Day and age and place. No federal law, the state's law was hung up in the courts, and the City charter allowed them to set their own laws on the subject.
Dont let the facts trip you up DU. Polygamy was illegal in Illinois and was not challenged by Smith or others. Marriage was defined nationally under common law accords. The law was not challenged at a federal level until Young moved the clan to Utah and polygamy became an issue for statehood long after joey started it. Infact Joey had a chance to challenge the law, but lied on the stand saying he was only married to one when the records show he was married to 9 at the time.
Really, when and where was that Canonized (it wasn't)
"Doctrinal interpretation is the province of the First Presidency. The Lord has given that stewardship to them by revelation. No teacher has the right to interpret doctrine for the members of the Church"
President Ezra Taft Benson, "The Gospel Teacher and His Message" as found in LDS manual "Charge to Religious Educators," pp.51-52
Bring it up with your living seer and prophet.
God has promised to answer prayers to him, that kind of precludes Satan doing so.
No, not in the slightest.
Yes, we all believe in Christ here, some of us are just paid hacks to attack another religion...
Addressed in another post
U Said: I said what FLDS is today, LDS was about a century ago and LDS have not revoked Section 132 which officially sanctioned polygamy 100 yrs ago. What truth bending that? It's called a lie of omission (Where you leave out something important on purpose...),
Note I said what FLDS is today, LDS was 100 years ago and what McConkie said hope to be again. Sect 132 authorizing it is still in place.
To insist that we can't negate a scripture with a later revelation while insisting that God did that in the Bible makes you a hypocrite of the most obvious order.
No, it shows that the god committee cannot make up its mind.