Why so many LDS threads?

08-May-2008 | Grig

[DelphiUser]

I Said: Not only that, But why would God lie to you , or allow Satan to do so?

U Said: It's HIS creation - He makes the rules.

And one of his rules is that he does not lie. U Said: Take it up with EVE & JOB!

God did not lie to either Eve, or Job. Neither did Satan answer a prayer by either Eve or Job.

U Said: Why would GOD 'allow' other folks to get a "NO" answer?

That is an interesting one, I have caught several anti Mormons here telling differing stories about how they got their "No" answers, and I cannot escape noticing that Anti's routinely call Mormons liars about their witnesses, or claim we were deceived by Satan, I've even had anti Mormons call me a demon and a deceiver of the first order (are deceivers orderly and how do you know they are not lying about that?) Many anti Mormons here have told me that the ends justify the means, while I hold that the means must always justify themselves, and that often the means say more than the message contained in it. I also note that many accuse others of doing exactly what they themselves do, I have called other Mormons on the carpet for acting in a way that is incompatible with our faith, I have been called on the carpet by other Mormons and once, what I said was taken so completely differently than what I meant that I spent an entire day responding and apologizing.

I do not know why God would ever say no, I can only conclude that one of us is either deceived or a deceiver, every time I pray about it, I am assured that it's not me. (Whew!)

[DelphiUser]

Why did GOD 'allow' that to happen; when a PERFECTLY good man - MITT - was available and willing?

God Gave man his agency, we are free to screw up (and we appear to be good at if our current presidential candidate is any indication)

Besides I'm a Fred Head, as you should know, sure, I'll vote for McCrazy, that does not mean I'll like it...

[DelphiUser]

Some valleys are lower.

Take whatever path you want, I enjoy the view from up here...

[MHGinTN]

The poster is incapable of ‘seeing’ the significance of what you asked and what the plagarized errors prove regarding the fabrication of Smith. Don’t be surprised as irrational responses accumulate in this regard. The poster cannot even see whow his explanation contradicts the mormon claims regarding the source of the BM.

[DelphiUser]

I Said: Not only that, But why would God lie to you , or allow Satan to do so?

U Said: God, obviously, allows Satan to lie ... which is what he (Satan) did in the garden with Eve.

God has given Man his agency, Satan can do what he wants and can do, but God promised to answer prayers, if he allows Satan to, or can't stop Satan from doing it, then he's not God. (God can and Does answer prayers to him, so he is indeed God)

You keep brining up Eve, please show where she prayed to God and Satan answered... (Crickets)

You keep bringing up Job, please show where Job prayed to God and Satan answered... (Crickets)

U Said: Which is why we must be discerning.

And what better way to discern truth from error than to ask the author of all truth who has promised to answer?

[DelphiUser]

Fascinating answer. Truly. The reason is that I have been told that the BOM is an ancient text, written before the KJV, and translated by Joseph Smith using the hat, seer stones, etc. I guess, that is incorrect?

My turn to apologize, I thought we were talking about the KJV Vs the JST which was Joseph smith's translation of the KJV Bible.

The passages from the KJV that are contained in the Book of Mormon were influenced heavily by Joseph who could quote much of the Bible from memory. Is that what you were asking about?

[DelphiUser]

So, the catholic theologian's comment is, in fact a second-hand quote from Orson F. Whitney, printed in the mormon-owned and operated Deseret News. Pure hearsay.

Apparently my skills as a researcher exceed yours and whoever was assigned this at FAIR

http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/ Read em and Weep.

Well, just moments ago I heard again from the original questioner with the answer. A friend of his worked with someone at the LDS Historical Library, and after much effort they found it. The Catholic theologian’s name is John A. Reiner. The source is Orson F. Whitney’s autobiography, Through Memory’s Halls: The Life Story of Orson F. Whitney, as Told by Himself (Independence, MO: Zion’s Printing and Publishing Company, 1930), 222-23. [If you want to buy a copy of the book, be forewarned that it is long out of print; the cheapest one I saw on the internet was $325.]

[Ron Jeremy]

No prob.

My question is as follows: The BOM contains many passages that are identical to the KJV.

The KJV was not perfect, and has many translation errors.

Some of the passages in the BOM contain KJV lines that have translation errors.

The LDS claim the BOM is an ancient text, written before the KJV.

How could a mistake made by the KJV translators wind up in the BOM if the BOM was written before the KJV?

Here is the link to the article I had posted on the subject (I have the right link this time!) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2033271/posts

Thanks

[greyfoxx39]

You took the exact same source that I linked in my post 1860 and had you read it you would have found the same info that I did.

You posted basically the same thing I did without tying it to Legrand Richards book.

From YOUR link, (also MINE) "Elder Richards’ proximate source for that story was a pamphlet published by Elder Orson Whitney, entitled “The Strength of the Mormon Position.” Below I have quoted what appears to be the earliest source, also from Elder Whitney, from 1921."

Nowhere in this article is there a written source that shows that John A. Reiner ever SAID this...the only source listed is Whitney. Hearsay!

You are going to have to furnish a verifiable link to a Reiner statement that originates somewhere besides the Whitney autobiography in order to crow "read 'em and weep" and impeach MY research. Taking the same source and trying to twist it isn't good enough.

[greyfoxx39]

Don’t be surprised as irrational responses accumulate in this regard. The poster cannot even see whow his explanation contradicts the mormon claims regarding the source of the BM.

Irrational responses are piling up. See post 1869.

[Quester]

I Said: Not only that, But why would God lie to you, or allow Satan to do so?

U Said: God, obviously, allows Satan to lie ... which is what he (Satan) did in the garden with Eve.

God has given Man his agency, Satan can do what he wants and can do, but God promised to answer prayers, if he allows Satan to, or can't stop Satan from doing it, then he's not God. (God can and Does answer prayers to him, so he is indeed God).

God, obviously, chooses to allow Satan to lie. You will even find, in scripture, where God specifically sent (allowed) a deceiving spirit to deceive Ahab. This was allowed because Ahab wished to be deceived, ... therefore God gave him what He wished ...

2 Kings 15:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

It is the same with all who hear and disbelieve the gospel. God allows them to be deceived (by Satan), ... in accordance with their desire.

God has also said that He will send a great deception at some times in the New Testament future ... to deceive those who are willing to be so deceived ...

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Recall that the Jews of Jesus' day asked Jesus for a sign that would confirm His ministry.

Jesus told the Jews that they would receive no sign ... additional to what God had already wrought among them.

God has already revealed Himself to us that we may believe that things are as He has said. We either believe what Jesus has already brought to us (in the scriptures) ... or we allow ourselves to be deceived.

We need ... and God will send ... no additional signs.

[Tennessee Nana]

The false prophet Joseph Smith had been in and out of jail several times since 1826...

He had done some real nasty stuff to lots of people for the past 20 myears...

His own folowers were among the crowd....

He spent his time in jail this time getting drunk on wine ...

He had a gun...

And knew how to use it..

Martyrs dont kill other men..

Martyrs dont organize “Danites”..

He was not a martyr...

The guy’s been dead for 160 years...

Much has bewen exposed about him in that time..

His life and attitude was one of an arrogant, unGodly tyrant..

He chose to die that way...

He had a responsibility to live as a decent law abiding man and husband to one wife...

But he refused to do so...

[DelphiUser]

You are going to have to furnish a verifiable link to a Reiner statement that originates somewhere besides the Whitney autobiography in order to crow "read 'em and weep" and impeach MY research. Taking the same source and trying to twist it isn't good enough.

That's interesting, a private conversation recorded in in Orson F. Whitney’s autobiography, and you want a citation to this private conversation from somewhere else? ROTFLOL!

You're' a funny guy, you'll accept a 50 years later remembrance from someone who over heard someone else talking and wrote something about it in his journal, but the actual guy in the conversation, that's not a good enough reference, he needs Video (from the 1800s no less) or it's not sourced, LOL!

You are a funny Guy, I gave you the source, it's a rare book, so to top that, I told you where a copy is, it's in the LDS Historical Library, Go look it up.

I don't believe you have the authority to tell me what I can and can't post and what I can and can't consider authoritative, you can insist that because you were not part of the conversation it didn't happen, you'll just look sillier.

It's theologically sound statement to make whether or not you agree with it, and it's a sourced quote to one of the two parties in the conversation who put it in his autobiography.

Read it and weep, or go there and prove it does not exist, either way, it's not my problem, but yours.

[Revelation 911]

cop out

[DelphiUser]

I Said: Not only that, But why would God lie to you, or allow Satan to do so?

U Said: God, obviously, allows Satan to lie ... which is what he (Satan) did in the garden with Eve.

I Said Later: God has given Man his agency, Satan can do what he wants and can do, but God promised to answer prayers, if he allows Satan to, or can't stop Satan from doing it, then he's not God. (God can and Does answer prayers to him, so he is indeed God).

U Said Later: God, obviously, chooses to allow Satan to lie. You will even find, in scripture, where God specifically sent (allowed) a deceiving spirit to deceive Ahab. This was allowed because Ahab wished to be deceived, ... therefore God gave him what He wished ...

I have and had no desire to be misled, God gave me the truth I asked for...

2 Kings 15:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

That's funny, 2 Kings 15:20-22

20 And Menahem exacted the money of Israel, even of all the mighty men of wealth, of each man fifty shekels of silver, to give to the king of Assyria. So the king of Assyria turned back, and stayed not there in the land. 21 ¶ And the rest of the acts of Menahem, and all that he did, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel? 22 And Menahem slept with his fathers; and Pekahiah his son reigned in his stead.

(princess bride quote, that word you keep using, I do not think it means what you think it means...)

U Said Later: It is the same with all who hear and disbelieve the gospel. God allows them to be deceived (by Satan), ... in accordance with their desire.

I have no desire to be deceived yet you say I am, your logic fails...

U Said Later: God has also said that He will send a great deception at some times in the New Testament future ... to deceive those who are willing to be so deceived ...

Yes, that deception is the Nicene creed which contains the abominable doctrine of the Trinity.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I like to give links so people don't have to go get their Bibles... 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

2 Thessalonians 2:10Recall that the Jews of Jesus' day asked Jesus for a sign that would confirm His ministry.

Jesus told the Jews that they would receive no sign ... additional to what God had already wrought among them.

You for got this one Matt. 16: 1, 3-4

Seeking after a sign is indeed a bad thing, asking a question is a good thing, do you know what the difference is? The difference is faith those who seek a sign are saying "you're wrong, you say your right, prove it." They have no faith, however, we were commanded by Jesus to ask... St. John 16:17-25

17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.
19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

U Said Later: God has already revealed Himself to us that we may believe that things are as He has said. We either believe what Jesus has already brought to us (in the scriptures) ... or we allow ourselves to be deceived.

You speak as one with little to no experience with the Holy Ghost, and for that I am truly sorry, ask It was not just a suggestion.

U Said Later: We need ... and God will send ... no additional signs.

If we don't ask, you are right, if we do, he will send the comforter with all the information we need.

The Apostles did many Signs and wonders after Jesus left, the Day of Pentecost was a day when the Holy Ghost fell upon them and many signs and wonders were seen and heard, do you deny these also?

[Quester]

That's funny, 2 Kings 15:20-22

Forgive me ... the reference should have been 1 Kings 22:20-22

You speak as one with little to no experience with the Holy Ghost, and for that I am truly sorry, ask It was not just a suggestion.

You are really not in a position to judge my experience with the Holy Spirit. I happen to believe that all believers in Christ are gifted with the presence and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is active in my life everyday.

Where we disagree is on the nature of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.

My point in this discussion is that we have been instructed by Jesus not to base our faith upon a sign, but upon the truth which we find in the Word of God.

Jesus described the ministry of the Holy Spirit among believers and He never said anything about the Holy Spirit warming the bosoms/hearts of believers as a sign of the truth of their belief.

In fact, Jesus said that the heart is deceitful above all things ... and desperately wicked. We should take care not to base our faith upon the feelings of our hearts.

As believers, we should strive for completeness and accuracy in our beliefs. A study of the ministry of the Holy Spirit would be beneficial for all believers.

[DelphiUser]

The false prophet Joseph Smith had been in and out of jail several times since 1826...

Jesus was jailed, they even tried to stone him several times, eventually they crucified him for his crimes... You can make anyone sound bad, even if they are not a bad person welcome to the MSM.

He had done some real nasty stuff to lots of people for the past 20 years...

Yeah, Lots of nasty stuff, like posting on FR...

His own followers were among the crowd....

Again, Jesus' followers were among the crowd when he was crucified, and I don't know of any reports of Mormons among the mob, source?

He spent his time in jail this time getting drunk on wine ...

Wow, prison food was better then, oh, wait there was no wine...

He had a gun...

I guess a pepper box might be called a gun, by reporters for the new your times...

And knew how to use it..

He lived on the frontier, everyone knew how to use a gun, even the women and children...

Martyrs don't kill other men..

So, the Christians killed in death matches in the Colosseum were not martyrs...

Martyrs don't organize “Danites”..

Neither did Joseph Smith...

He was not a martyr...

He died for his faith in Jesus Christ... If he had renounced it they would have let him live.

The guy’s been dead for 160 years...

And still people say lies about him and "shade the truth" some people, believing other people's lies no longer know what the truth is, they were not there, they just believe the worst. It does not say much about their character.

Much has been exposed about him in that time..

and it exonerates him of the charges you leveled here.

His life and attitude was one of an arrogant, unGodly tyrant..

Some believe that, but then, some people believe that about almost every one.

He chose to die that way...

He did not "choose to die", he fought for life, remember the gun you were just complaining about? I don't know why I bother, you do not seem to be open to logic and reason.

He had a responsibility to live as a decent law abiding man and husband to one wife...

He was that many times over (the one wife thing, Chuckle)

But he refused to do so...

So we stormed the prison we had him dragged to on trumped up charges, since we knew he would be found innocent, again, we made sure he died, then we propped him up against the well, and shot him over and over just so we could all say we were the one who shot Joseph Smith, and because as law abiding upstanding citizens it was our duty to put soot on our faces and storm a jail to shoot a man before he could go to trial, Yeah, our Duty as patriots to murder a man for his faith in God.

The sad thing is mine is satire and yours is not...

[Tennessee Nana]

He did not “choose to die”, he fought for life, remember the gun you were just complaining about? I don’t know why I bother, you do not seem to be open to logic and reason.
_______________________________________________

Oh, yes he did..

From the multi million dollar Joseph Smith movie shown at the JS Memorial center.. Made and produced and sanctioned by the mormons at SLC..

Hyram Smith..They want us to go to Carthage..

Joe Smith.. Yes and if we go I will die..

So since he actually knew that..

Why did he go ??? And for what reason ???

There is no mention of why he was arrested..

Oh and there was NO gun in the movie...

And no extra wives in the movie ...no mention of polygamy at all..

And no tar and feathering in 1831 for seducing the Johnson girl

And no mention of the printing press that he had destroyed..

And no mention of the peep stones ..

Or the money digging..

The other guy was in the room with him when he “translated” the “gold plates”

Sans the hat..

No mention of the 116 “lost pages”

Infinitum...

Thank me..

[MHGinTN]

Dancing with the tar baby tonight?

[DelphiUser]

cop out Terse response...

IMHO, it is not a cop out to point out that you are unlikely to find a second reference to a personal conversation by someone besides the parties involved.

It is also not a cop out to point out that a first person account in an autobiography is usually considered sufficient by reasonable people as a source.

I admit that the book being difficult to find, is a bit of a bummer, but I did note where a copy could be found and checked for reference, thus I have gone above and beyond the "norm" for sourcing on this forum.

You may feel free to call it a cop out, and I will expect a similar high standard from your references in the future.

There is one thing I wonder about, Why does the observations of a Catholic theologian from days gone by merit such scrutiny, his is a logical statement, if you disagree, don't investigate his credentials, explain why his logic is flawed...