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The Myth of Mary's Lifetime Virginity
Contender Ministries (NOT a "hate site") ^ | January 11, 2004 | John Schroeder

Posted on 05/07/2008 8:53:09 AM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg

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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
In Greek, the language of the New Testament, the word for brother/ brethren is adelphos {ad-el-fos'}; for sisters, it’s adelphe {ad-el-fay'}. The word for cousin/kinfolk is suggenes {soong-ghen-ace'}. To think or believe that the inspired writers of Scripture were unfamiliar with these terms and therefore subject to misusing them, is to question the very integrity of the Holy Spirit who directed their efforts.

Working from memory:

When the Septuagint was translated into the Greek, it was observed that there is no word in Hebrew for cousin, and that to avoid clumsy circumlocutions, the Hebrew used the word for brother to mean male relatives and even close males not related by blood.

The translators used the word delphos for all such translations because it matched the Hebrew word for brother which was being applied to all those categories of males.

The writers of the New Testament followed this pattern, using delphos for all such categories of relation: brother, male relative of the same generation, close male friends of non-blood relation.

The appearance of the word delphos in the NT is not significant to establish the existance of blood brothers.

41 posted on 05/07/2008 9:29:41 AM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: Campion

Read the article as linked - the author answers your question.


42 posted on 05/07/2008 9:29:49 AM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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To: ladtx
The question remains: what point is served by stretching (and I think that's a fair word) the text of the Bible into a preconceived notion that Mary was a perpetual virgin?
43 posted on 05/07/2008 9:30:46 AM PDT by quadrant
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
The Bible declares Jesus has siblings and there is no Biblical warrant for thinking Mary remained a virgin. Ergo, this thread.

Careful, this article also implies Mary was not a virgin before Marriage and all Christian in the historic tradition must reject this nonsense.

44 posted on 05/07/2008 9:31:26 AM PDT by 11th Commandment (McCain makes me crazy- Obama scares the cr*p out of me.)
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To: Campion

There are many pagan newspaper stories and RC web sites that show what many prottys observe as worship. I give this site as an example: http://www.maryundoerofknots.com/welcome.htm


45 posted on 05/07/2008 9:32:20 AM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
She had other children after Jesus, with her earthly husband.

I didn't realize Catholics think she was virgin forever; that seems odd to me.
That belief would not be Biblically grounded from what I have read.

46 posted on 05/07/2008 9:32:39 AM PDT by HereInTheHeartland ("We have to drain the swamp" George Bush, September 2001)
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg

I fail to see how it is important to Christian doctrine to determine whether Mary was a lifelong virgin. The virgin birth of Christ only requires her to be a virgin prior to his birth.

Was she not married to Joseph? I think it unlikely that she was a lifelong virgin — but I suppose its possible. I am quite sure it is entirely irrelevant doctrinally.

H


47 posted on 05/07/2008 9:34:36 AM PDT by SnakeDoctor
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To: 11th Commandment

Please post the excerpt from the article that implies Mary was not a virgin before marriage.


48 posted on 05/07/2008 9:35:17 AM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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To: 11th Commandment

When did the Reformers start to question the perpetual virginity of Mary?

Freegards


49 posted on 05/07/2008 9:36:01 AM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
No, he certainly doesn't. In fact, no such verse exists.

He also makes some impressive blunders. For example:

When the word adelphos is used in the Gospels in reference to a specific name or names, it always means blood brother(s). There are no exceptions.

There most certainly is one exception. Phillip, tetrarch of Iturea, is identified in Luke 3:1 as Herod's brother.

According to secular historians, he was Herod's half-brother. But Luke doesn't say "half-brother," because, to the Hebrews, all your contemporary male relatives were "brothers".

His argument about "first-born" demonstrates incredible Biblical illiteracy. Does he not understand that the firstborn child was especially dedicated to God, and was called "firstborn" whether or not any children followed?

(Hint: the Temple sacrifice required for the firstborn child was performed at 40 days after birth. At 40 days, there weren't any other siblings yet.)

Does he think the only "firstborn" killed in the Exodus were people with younger brothers or sisters?

Jerome runs tight little rings around him. Jerome knew the Bible; this guy doesn't.

50 posted on 05/07/2008 9:38:05 AM PDT by Campion
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To: Tao Yin
As such, I think it’s silly for Popes to say that salvation depends on belief of Mary’s ever virgin status.

Too many believe they know what the Catholic Church teaches. No Pope has ever said anything approaching that. This is directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

169 Salvation comes from God alone;

51 posted on 05/07/2008 9:38:27 AM PDT by ladtx ( "Never miss a good chance to shut up." - - Will Rogers)
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg

The Bible is clear enough when it says Jesus had brothers and sisters in that all were born of Mary.
Of course anytime the truth of the Bible is pointed out it will be called “hate” because it exposes the falsity of the traditions that Jesus said tried to make the Word of God invalid.


52 posted on 05/07/2008 9:41:22 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: ladtx

Fine. I’ll go find the proclamation. To me it seems that too many Catholics believe they know that the Catholic Church taught.


53 posted on 05/07/2008 9:42:16 AM PDT by Tao Yin
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
There are many pagan newspaper stories and RC web sites that show what many prottys observe as worship.

Evidently, I'm not getting through to you.

I already know you have an endless supply of stuff to use accuse and defame Catholics.

I'm asking if you have the humility and understanding to admit that there are many in your own camp who are just as bad. And then I'm asking why you continually go after us, instead of after them.

54 posted on 05/07/2008 9:42:35 AM PDT by Campion
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To: count-your-change
The Bible is clear enough ... that all were born of Mary

That verse would be ... where, exactly ???

55 posted on 05/07/2008 9:43:36 AM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion
Very common in Hebrew culture for all of your contemporary male relatives to be called your “brothers”. NB Abraham calls Lot his “brother” in Genesis, though Lot is really his nephew.

True, but examine the context of the verse.

Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

His divinity was being called into question. They were basically saying that how could Jesus come from Heaven when he has a mother, brothers, and sisters living in town.

56 posted on 05/07/2008 9:43:57 AM PDT by Stark_GOP
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To: Tao Yin
To me it seems that too many Catholics believe they know that the Catholic Church taught.

LOL! That's actually a beam in the eye of the "Reformed" types who are obsessed with debunking the Catholic Church.

57 posted on 05/07/2008 9:44:27 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: RightWhale

I’m thinking we’ll find out after we die...maybe


58 posted on 05/07/2008 9:47:31 AM PDT by stuartcr (Election year.....Who we gonna hate, in '08?)
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To: Stark_GOP
His divinity was being called into question. They were basically saying that how could Jesus come from Heaven

Well, no. The context says nothing like that. They were questioning where he got the wisdom to teach as he did, and to perform "mighty deeds".

when he has a mother, brothers, and sisters living in town.

That works whether his brothers and sisters were children of Mary or not. The point is "we know this guy, we know his family, who does he think he is?"

59 posted on 05/07/2008 9:47:39 AM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion

I guess you didn’t read Matt. 13:55,56. It’s also quoted at the site so I would trust Matthew’s inspired testimony over Jerome’s reasonings.
But as I said some would put tradition over God’s Word.


60 posted on 05/07/2008 9:50:23 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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