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Hey, Who Are You Calling a Cult?
Belief.net ^ | Orson Scott Card

Posted on 05/06/2008 10:06:47 PM PDT by sevenbak

He wrote to me in all innocence, a reader from a Catholic country where Mormon missionaries had only recently begun to gather congregations of believers. "I asked my priest," he said, "and he told me that Mormons are a cult."

Setting aside the obvious riposte ("What did you think your priest would tell you, that Mormonism was true Christianity as restored by God to living prophets?"), I think it's worth considering just what we mean by "cult" and seeing whether it applies to the Mormon Church.

Cult as Bad Word

Anti-Mormons use "cult" the way gay activists use "homophobe"--as an ad hominem epithet hurled to try to silence any persuasive opponent whose ideas can't be countered on their merits.

When used this way, "cult" just means "religion I want you to fear so much you won't listen to them." Or even, "religion I want you to hate so much that you will remove it from the list of churches that deserve constitutional protection."

But just as "homophobe" has a core meaning (someone with a pathological fear of homosexuality to the degree that it interferes with his life), so also with "cult." The only reason it works as name-calling is because there really are religious groups that do--and should--scare us.

There are real examples of what we mean by cults: Jim Jones' group that destroyed itself in mass murder and suicide in Guyana, or those sneaker-wearing folks who killed themselves to join aliens approaching behind a comet. And even though the Branch Davidians may not have been as monstrous as they were depicted in the media, they still clearly fall within what we mean by that word.

What do they have in common?

Charismatic Founder. Cults gather around charismatic individuals who are the sole source of truth to their followers.

Exploitation. The leader enriches himself through the financial contributions of the members, or gathers personal power that he uses to exploit members in other ways to benefit himself. If the group survives the leader's death, it remains a cult if his successors continue that exploitation.

Automatons. The members are discouraged from thinking for themselves, and, insofar as possible, are turned into unquestioning "obedience machines."

Withdrawal and Isolation. Perhaps because exploitation and obedience are easiest to maintain when the ordinary world can't offer its distractions and attractions, cults tend to withdraw physically, seeking ever greater isolation. This is often used as part of the conversion process, to keep the prospective member from hearing counterarguments.

Are All Religions Cults?

It's worth pointing out that there are very few religions of any size or influence that did not begin with a charismatic founder and whose members did not seem, to outsiders, to behave in much the way I've just described. A humble, wise teacher can always be charged with "setting himself up as the sole source of truth" merely because he offers any unusual idea. The gathering of money to help the poor or pay for meetinghouses or publications can be called "exploitation." The natural desire of converts to live according to the teachings of their leader can look like lockstep blind obedience to those who live a different way. And if outsiders persecute the new religion, it is only natural that adherents will want to band together and get away, if only for a few hours at a time, to be able to practice their religion in peace.

All religions have a body of teachings that becomes a lens through which the believers see the world around them. To those who don't believe, the lens seems to be a distortion of reality--though of course, those unbelievers are merely distorting reality their own way, through their own lens. No one sees reality without passing the data through the lens of their own preconceptions.

All religions also form a community, however loosely organized, of like-minded believers who set the standard of correctness. Whether that standard is rigid or relaxed, those who cross it are expelled from the community and are treated as heretics, apostates, or infidels. Severe treatment of heretics can be found from the lowliest cult to the largest church, from the most rigid sect to "open"-minded, post-religious academia.

You have to get fairly close to a new religion in order to see whether it is acting like a cult or like a religion. Most of those who hurl the word "cult," however, do not bother to get close. And those who do are often so grimly determined to attack that they distort all evidence in order to support the charge.

How Does Mormonism Measure Up?

Joseph Smith was a charismatic leader, but he was murdered 156 years ago. Nowadays, we have leaders who, while sometimes gifted at communication, are rarely of the dramatic, movement-founding type. Indeed, I feel safe in saying that the majority in my lifetime have been rather dull and gray, and they are followed far more because of their office than because of any personal charisma.

Exploitation? As for exploitative leadership, this charge is absolutely false and always has been. Joseph Smith passed the money test with flying colors: He died poor and in debt, not because of profligate spending, but because any money that flowed into his hands flowed right back out again in attempts to benefit the saints and build the church.

In the years since, a handful of church offices have become salaried, but the salaries are merely enough to sustain normal family life. The perks of wealth are shunned even by those church leaders who were rich before being called to one of those rare salaried offices. And church leaders constantly struggle to eliminate the sycophancy, the cult of personality, and the general "sucking up" that are bound to arise in any hierarchical organization.

By any honest measure, Mormon church leaders, from Joseph Smith on, have a remarkable record of genuine humility. They really do try to be the servants rather than the masters of the saints. Automatons? Those who have actually lived in a Mormon ward--and especially those who have tried to lead a group of Mormons in any kind of activity--can all affirm one truth: Mormons may well be the most stubborn, independent-minded group of people ever assembled as a religious community.

Joseph Smith received a revelation that established the only style of leadership that actually works in the Mormon church (or, in the long run, anywhere): You can only lead by persuasion, by love, by patience, by your own willingness to learn from those you lead. Every now and then, some local Mormon leader will try to give orders or attempt to manipulate people into doing things his way. But he very quickly learns that the more he does that, the less obedient we Mormons become.

Far from being robots, most of us Mormons are, by inclination and by doctrine, determined to make up our own minds about everything. It's a core doctrine of Mormonism that each member of the church is personally and individually responsible for their own relationship with God.

Isolation? As for the cultish trait of isolating converts from any other influence, or brainwashing them till they can't think for themselves, our method of teaching would-be proselytes is the opposite. We usually teach them in their own homes. Our missionaries come for a little while and then leave them to themselves to read, ponder, and pray. We counter the attacks of anti-Mormons by telling the truth about our beliefs and practices, not by trying to cut off contact with our opponents.

Far from becoming isolated, a new convert to Mormonism is taught to be more respectful and loving to parents, spouse, children, and other family members and friends. They usually do better at their careers and education, and if withdrawal takes place it is because their new Mormon lifestyle and beliefs are rejected by their family or friends.

Kettles and Pots

On all these points, I daresay that the Mormon church is less cult-like than many of the religions that delight in calling us one.

Indeed, calling Mormonism a cult is usually an attempt to get people to behave like robots, blindly obeying the command that they reject Mormonism without any independent thought. Kettles, as they say, calling the pot black.

Here's the simplest statement I can make: If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it, and I would not be in it.


TOPICS: History; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: christ; cults; lds; mormon; ob
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To: greyfoxx39
Can you attend your daughter's wedding?

I did. Walked her down the isle and everything. Funny though, every prayer included something about the "heathen" among us today and at the end of the ceremony after the bride and groom have left the chapel, there was a ten minute sermon and an equally long alter call.

We visit their church quite often. Usually because the grandchildren are in some play, song or other such thing.

81 posted on 05/07/2008 8:28:38 AM PDT by Between the Lines (I am very cognizant of my fallibility, sinfulness, and other limitations.)
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To: Between the Lines; colorcountry
I did. Walked her down the isle and everything. Funny though, every prayer included something about the "heathen" among us today and at the end of the ceremony after the bride and groom have left the chapel, there was a ten minute sermon and an equally long alter call.

What denomination's chapel was the wedding held in?

82 posted on 05/07/2008 8:34:13 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: greyfoxx39
It was their own, but I guess I should have called it their sanctuary instead of calling it a chapel. That is what they would call it. They are Independent Fundamentalist Baptists.
83 posted on 05/07/2008 8:43:30 AM PDT by Between the Lines (I am very cognizant of my fallibility, sinfulness, and other limitations.)
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To: Between the Lines

Yeah, that confused me...anyway, at least you got to attend your daughter’s wedding. Good for you.


84 posted on 05/07/2008 8:49:23 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: Religion Moderator

So far you have made the right calls from what I have seen.


85 posted on 05/07/2008 9:07:41 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Sleep with one eye open, Gripping your pillow tight , Exit light , Enter night.......)
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To: sevenbak

I await an Orthodox’ freeper corrections to your connection of the Church fathers with current LDS doctrine. I can assure you the understanding is not at all the same when it comes to “deification”. Catholics also hold with this belief but it is more central in Orthodoxy and that is why I await their benevolent correction of your assumption.


86 posted on 05/07/2008 9:11:36 AM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: TheDon
We believe the restoration of Christ's church is a fulfillment of that promise.

So...I'm just trying to be clear here, since I know very little about Mormonism. You believe that the Church ceased to exist after the death of the last apostle, and then was reestablished by Joseph Smith? That doesn't seem like the "Gates of Hell" prevailed for awhile?

87 posted on 05/07/2008 10:17:38 AM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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To: thefrankbaum

Not ultimately.


88 posted on 05/07/2008 12:43:27 PM PDT by TheDon
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe

Have you ever considered how much Rome and Salt Lake City have in common?

_________________________________

Both have progressive revelation

Both have an infallible spiritual head

Both have extra books

Both rely, to some degree, on their own works

Both claim to be the true church

Both have temple rituals

______________________________

It’s just amazing!


89 posted on 05/07/2008 12:48:51 PM PDT by Gamecock ("I find your lack of faith-disturbing" Darth Vader)
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To: Between the Lines

***They are Independent Fundamentalist Baptists. ***

Publishers of Sword of the Lord?
John R. Rice former President?

Out of Mufreesburo, Tenn?


90 posted on 05/07/2008 1:09:48 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: sevenbak

The problem with the Mormon conception of salvation lies not in the understanding of salvation as deification, which is, in fact the Orthodox Christian (and thus arguably the original Christian) understanding of salvation, but in the Mormon conception of God.

The ‘Heavenly Father’ of Mormonism is too materialistic in conception—circumscribed in space (and time as to a beginning), procreating ‘spiritually’, and so forth—and bears no real resemblance to the true Christian understanding of God as incomprehensibly transcendant, incomprehensibly glorious, and at the same time (and perhaps more incomprehenibly) self-emptying, ‘taking the form of a servant’ that we might become like Him.


91 posted on 05/07/2008 1:45:08 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: sevenbak; greyfoxx39; colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie
I see from your post #9 you still haven't learned that brevity in posts is more effective.

You can argue that you are just trying to refute point by point, but you always include Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than was presented - because you try to spin it in other directions.

Helluva distraction attempt technique. Lousy way to win people over.

92 posted on 05/07/2008 4:11:24 PM PDT by SkyPilot ("I wasn't in church during the time when the statements were made.")
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To: SkyPilot

SHHHHhhhhhhh!


93 posted on 05/07/2008 5:10:00 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: TheDon

So the gates of hell only kinda prevailed?


94 posted on 05/07/2008 6:41:31 PM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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To: thefrankbaum

Correct. As the grave temporarily prevails. :-)


95 posted on 05/07/2008 7:23:49 PM PDT by TheDon
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To: zerosix

What other Gods besides God the Father do you claim that we worship?


96 posted on 05/07/2008 9:15:14 PM PDT by Old Mountain man (Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice!)
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To: sevenbak

I accept him as my Savior, without reservation or pause. He is my redeemer, my King, my God.

Then I guess we are brothers in Christ, amen brother!


97 posted on 05/07/2008 9:55:30 PM PDT by garylmoore (Faith is the assurance of things unseen.)
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To: TheDon; thefrankbaum
used by Neo-Platonists in various metaphysical and theological senses and picked up by N.T. writers.

Soooo, the Apostle John was a neo-platonist? The first century church (you know, the one you claim wasn't corrupted) was neo-platonist? That is quite humorous as well as simply wrong.

98 posted on 05/08/2008 8:21:42 AM PDT by Godzilla (I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message.)
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To: zerosix; dangus

Not true for me zerosix, dangus

I (a convert) left the church, my wife (a convert) did not. She has never been told nor encouraged to leave me. With the rough patches we’ve gone through in our marriage, I think she would have jumped at the chance if the church leaders were doing this (encouraging divorce).

I have not been “shunned”. I choose not to associate with many of the congregation because we don’t have much in common. We’ve been invited to private parties and the such and attend those we choose to. There are also church sponsored events throughout the year that we attend when we choose and I’ve not been shunned when in attendance at those either.

“Cult”? I don’t think so. They obviously didn’t hold that much sway over me or many of the other posters on this and other mormon threads who have left the church. Their own families may have made decisions to ostracize these folks, but I don’t believe it’s systemic.

zerosix, I’m not trying to start a flame war, the poster asked a question and I’m giving a differing experience than yours. I am not denying/questioning yours occured.

Regards,
SZ


99 posted on 05/08/2008 1:00:31 PM PDT by SZonian (Back with a vengeance)
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To: AppyPappy

Yes Larry King’s wife is a Mormon. I spent much of my teenager years in the same LDS Ward as Larry King’s father-in-law and mother-in-law.


100 posted on 05/08/2008 3:14:00 PM PDT by Degaston
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