Posted on 05/03/2008 4:38:34 PM PDT by NYer
Scripture, our Evangelical friends tell us, is the inerrant Word of God. Quite right, the Catholic replies; but how do you know this to be true?
It's not an easy question for Protestants, because, having jettisoned Tradition and the Church, they have no objective authority for the claims they make for Scripture. There is no list of canonical books anywhere in the Bible, nor does any book (with the exception of St. John's Apocalypse) claim to be inspired. So, how does a "Bible Christian" know the Bible is the Word of God?
If he wants to avoid a train of thought that will lead him into the Catholic Church, he has just one way of responding: With circular arguments pointing to himself (or Luther or the Jimmy Swaggart Ministries or some other party not mentioned in the Bible) as an infallible authority telling him that it is so. Such arguments would have perplexed a first or second century Christian, most of whom never saw a Bible.
Christ founded a teaching Church. So far as we know, he himself never wrote a word (except on sand). Nor did he commission the Apostles to write anything. In due course, some Apostles (and non-Apostles) composed the twenty-seven books which comprise the New Testament. Most of these documents are ad hoc; they are addressed to specific problems that arose in the early Church, and none claim to present the whole of Christian revelation. It's doubtful that St. Paul even suspected that his short letter to Philemon begging pardon for a renegade slave would some day be read as Holy Scripture.
Who, then, decided that it was Scripture? The Catholic Church. And it took several centuries to do so. It was not until the Council of Carthage (397) and a subsequent decree by Pope Innocent I that Christendom had a fixed New Testament canon. Prior to that date, scores of spurious gospels and "apostolic" writings were floating around the Mediterranean basin: the Gospel of Thomas, the "Shepherd" of Hermas, St. Paul's Letter to the Laodiceans, and so forth. Moreover, some texts later judged to be inspired, such as the Letter to the Hebrews, were controverted. It was the Magisterium, guided by the Holy Spirit, which separated the wheat from the chaff.
But, according to Protestants, the Catholic Church was corrupt and idolatrous by the fourth century and so had lost whatever authority it originally had. On what basis, then, do they accept the canon of the New Testament? Luther and Calvin were both fuzzy on the subject. Luther dropped seven books from the Old Testament, the so-called Apocrypha in the Protestant Bible; his pretext for doing so was that orthodox Jews had done it at the synod of Jamnia around 100 A. D.; but that synod was explicitly anti-Christian, and so its decisions about Scripture make an odd benchmark for Christians.
Luther's real motive was to get rid of Second Maccabees, which teaches the doctrine of Purgatory. He also wanted to drop the Letter of James, which he called "an epistle of straw," because it flatly contradicts the idea of salvation by "faith alone" apart from good works. He was restrained by more cautious Reformers. Instead, he mistranslated numerous New Testament passages, most notoriously Romans 3:28, to buttress his polemical position.
The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority--sola scriptura --is nowhere to be found in the Bible. St. Paul wrote to Timothy that Scripture is "useful" (which is an understatemtn), but neither he nor anyone else in the early Church taught sola scriptura. And, in fact, nobody believed it until the Reformation. Newman called the idea that God would let fifteen hundred years pass before revealing that the bible was the sole teaching authority for Christians an "intolerable paradox."
Newman also wrote: "It is antecedently unreasonable to Bsuppose that a book so complex, so unsystematic, in parts so obscure, the outcome of so many minds, times, and places, should be given us from above without the safeguard of some authority; as if it could possibly, from the nature of the case, interpret itself...." And, indeed, once they had set aside the teaching authority of the Church, the Reformers began to argue about key Scriptural passages. Luther and Zwingli, for example, disagreed vehemently about what Christ meant by the words, "This is my Body."
St. Augustine, usually Luther's guide and mentor, ought to have the last word about sola scriptura: "But for the authority of the Church, I would not believe the Gospel."
Any responsible physician would order a chlorpromazine drip and observation in response to such suggestions.
God only knows.
Lots of people have speculated a dozen different directions on that one.
My relative who worked around them sounds like he’s certain it will be before 2012. But I think he’s just guessing.
You are very clever. I could have told you that and I haven't even met your relative.
Anyone who believes that Mary is "a co-redeemer" and a "dispensatrix of all grace" and "redeems Christ's flock with Him," and that a priest is "another Christ" is clearly preaching another Gospel.
Perhaps that's why Rome marginalizes the word of God since it works contrary to Scripture while not wanting to be considered as the apostate church it is.
Thus who really cares if Rome denies the work of the Holy Spirit to make the truth of the Bible known to us, thereby ignoring the word of God?
As MarkBSnr wrote last night -- "...what Scripture is. It is what we wrote as an accompanying manual for the teachings of the Church."
As the hubris of Rome grows, it becomes easier to show exactly where Rome errs.
“Your assumptions about me, as usual,
are more than a little flawed, if not off the wall.”
You’ve managed to create those impressions.
You must live Christ each moment of each day.
False.
Some folks think the oligarchy will never out such things because they know that governments that can’t protect their citizens and prevent abductions and people mutilations, as well as cattle mutilations . . .
are quickly deemed unworthy any more popularity with the people.
Others think that the UFO/ET forces will out themselves at some point.
I’m sure it’s all scripted in hell and who knows when God will allow such portions of the end times scenarios to play out.
But there are trend lines . . . that have finite, if unknown end boundaries.
At some point, the world ruler WILL take overt public charge of the global government that’s already depely entrenched around the world.
My own speculation is that he will use the UFO forces to scare/lead the world’s citizens into the global government.
I think the Scripture about men’s hearts failing them for fear has partly to do with that unprecedented reality confronting finite minds that are too rigid and narrow in their constructions on reality—and
WHO’S RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS is too rigid, narrow and ignorant
to manage such realities without freaking out to the max.
I still think that some of the ET races will take the role of bad cop and some the role of good cop.
Werner von Braun’s assertion in 1974 that the oligarchy had scheduled a future war on terror to be followed by a war on Iraq to be followed by a war with ET in space . . .
seems to be quite on track.
Again, more proof that protestants are not so much concerned with Truth as they are with hatred of the Catholic Church.
= = =
Do they REALLY teach such outrageous leaps of
rubberized ILL-pseudo-logic
in RC PAROCHIAL schools???
Amazing.
Your current Pope says the Holy Spirit "does not exactly take control of the affair", not DIRECTLY, who are you to argue with your Vicar. I forgot Razinger was a Cardinal at the time and not speaking ex cathedra, argue away.
Actually, that uninformed assertion is again off the wall WRONG, INACCURATE, PROVEN INACCURATE:
John Mack, HEAD of Harvard’s psychiatric chunk of the medical school . . .
researched such things extensively.
Guess what, he’d agree with me far more than with you.
Nice try.
Try reading up on the stuff solidly and extensively next time before parading ignorance.
Are the Presbyterians here on board with all this?
Enough. The priest is not another Christ.
Alter Christus is this:
This is what the priest represents at the Mass:
THE MASS OF THE CATECHUMENS
1. Introibo ad altare Dei
The priest going to the foot of the altar represents Christ going to Mount Olivet.
2. Judica me, Deus...
The priest commencing the Holy Mass represents Christ beginning to pray in the Garden.
3. Confiteor Deo...
The priest saying the Confiteor represents Christ falling down and sweating blood at Mt. Olivet.
4. Oramus Te, Domine, per merita Sanctorum Tuorum
The priest going up and kissing the altar, after praying Aufer a nobis..., represents Christ being betrayed by Judas with a kiss.
5. Oremus
The priest going to the Epistle side represents Christ being captured, bound and taken to Annas.
6. The INTROIT
The priest reading the Introit represents Christ being falsely accused by Annas and blasphemed.
7. Kyrie Eleison
The priest going to the middle of the altar and saying the Kyrie eleison represents Christ being brought to Caiphas and these three times denied by Peter.
8. Dominus vobiscum
The priest saying the Dominus vobiscum represents Christ looking at Peter and converting him.
9. The EPISTLE
The priest reading the Epistle represents Christ being brought to Pilate.
10. Munda cor meum
The priest saying the Munda cor meum represents Christ being taken to Herod and mocked.
11. The GOSPEL
The priest reading the Gospel represents Christ being taken to Pilate and again mocked.
THE MASS OF THE FAITHFUL
OFFERTORY and CANON OF THE MASS
12. The OFFERTORY
The priest uncovering the chalice represents Christ being shamefully exposed.
13. Suscipe and Offerimus...
The priest offering bread and wine represents Christ being cruelly scourged.
14. In spiritu humilitatis...
The priest covering the chalice represents Christ being crowned with thorns.
15. Lavabo...
The priest washing his hands represents Christ being declared innocent by Pilate.
16. Orate Fratres
The priest saying the Orate Fratres represents Christ being shown by Pilate to the people with the words “Ecce Homo.”
17. The SECRET
The priest praying in a low voice represents Christ being mocked and spit upon.
18. The PREFACE and Sanctus
The priest saying the Preface and the Sanctus represents Christ being preferred instead of Barrabas and condemned to crucifixion.
19. Communicantes
The priest making the memento for the living represents Christ carrying the cross to Mount Calvary.
20. CANON Prayers
The priest continuing to pray in a low voice represents Christ meeting His Mother.
21. Hanc igitur
The priest blessing the bread and wine represents Christ being nailed to the cross.
22. HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM...
The priest elevating the host represents Christ being raised on the cross.
23. HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI...
The priest elevating the chalice represents Christ shedding blood from the five wounds.
24. Memento
The priest praying in a low voice represents Christ seeing His afflicted Mother at the foot of the cross.
25. Nobis quoque peccatoribus
The priest saying aloud the words Nobis quoque peccatoribus represents Christ praying on the cross for men.
COMMUNION and THANKSGIVING
26. Pater Noster
The priest saying aloud the the Pater Noster represents Christ saying the seven words on the cross.
27. Fraction of the Host
The priest breaking and separating the host represents Christ giving up His spirit.
28. Haec commixtio...
The priest letting a portion of the host fall into the chalice represents His soul going to Limbo.
29. Agnus Dei...
The priest saying the Agnus Dei represents Christ being acknowledged on the cross as the Son of God by many bystanders.
30. HOLY COMMUNION
The priest administering Holy Communion represents Christ being laid in the sepulchre with the white linen over the communion railing representing the pure shroud.
31. Cleansing the Chalice
The priest cleansing the chalice represents Christ being anointed by pure women.
32. Preparing the Chalice
The priest preparing the chalice again represents Christ rising from the dead.
33. Dominus vobiscum...
The priest saying the Dominus vobiscum represents Christ appearing to His mother and the disciples.
34. POSTCOMMUNION
The priest saying the last prayers in the Postcommunion represents Christ teaching for forty days.
35. Dominus vobiscum
The priest saying the Dominus vobiscum just before the Ite Missa est represents Christ taking leave of His disciples with His final words in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to “Feed My sheep” and ascending into Heaven.
36. Ite Missa est and FINAL BLESSING
The priest saying the Ite Missa est blessing represents Christ sending down the Holy Ghost on Pentecost Sunday.
37. LAST GOSPEL
The priest is not “another Christ”
This is the liturgy and this is what he represents.
"...what Scripture is. It is what we wrote as an accompanying manual for the teachings of the Church."
As the hubris of Rome grows, it becomes easier to show exactly where Rome errs.
INDEED.
However, they can’t help themselves . . . they continue to provide great foils for helping folks at least be aware of some of the probabilities ahead.
Do you recall my post #203 from last night?
Most Christians of all stripes are very ignorant of such realities.
Some of us are ahead of the pack in terms of our research and understanding.
The best Christian site on it is:
BTW, Guy Malone was recently married. PTL!
Anyway—he has an excellent ministry freeing folks and entire extended families from series of abductions often going back several generations.
In terms of FR Presby’s most are skeptical to waiting and watching.
Some are well aware and informed but ‘in the closet’ rather than contend with all the ignorant derisiveness.
The UFO ping list has well over 100 names but most are just silent readers rather than put up with the ignorant hogwash they’ve heard 100’s of times and know tooooo extensively how hollow and ignorant such perspectives are.
Enough? I'd say more than enough.
"...Simply stated, the Catholic priest is another Christ. Through his ordination he has been granted the amazing gift of being a channel of divine grace for the eternal salvation of those he come into contact with —- both in his official ministry and in his personal life..."
Waaay more than enough.
"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." -- Matthew 12:37
Are the Calvinists on board with this?
I’m not of the Catholic faith. :-) And Cardinals are not Apostles, as far as I understand the Catholic faith. If I’ve misspoke on that point, I’m happy to be corrected by someone of that faith.
He’s alter Christus in his sacred duties.
I’m sorry you lack understanding. I will pray for you.
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