No, not me...
Posted on 05/03/2008 4:38:34 PM PDT by NYer
Are you suggesting that God (Christ) is not omnipresent?
No. But you are if you are saying “by their (the Catholics you observed) fruit you shall know them (Catholics in general)?”
I'm prepared to be edumicated.
But it provides clearer communication to those who are unfamiliar to say:You are correct.
Praise G-d !
Omnipresense and Real Presense are two totally different terms.
Blessings on you and yours !
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua
If you want to abuse the idea of omnipresence that way, then why do you need a church? Just partake of communion by going out to your back yard and eat a fistful of dandelions, knowing that our omnipresent God is present in the dandelions.
OR, realize that "Real Presence" is more specific than "presence."
I agree it certainly WAS His Will that the first Bibles printed on a printing press by Gutenberg be the Vulgate and not some heretical and incomplete translation.
Maybe not to you, but the real presence of Christ is all around me and the Holy Spirit is dwelling within also. Maybe you haven't experienced this rebirth so you don't know this personally?
This was probably a Pre-vatican II CHurch. (Lovely, too IMHO) On either side of the "reredos" (that confection on the "East" wall) there are angels bearing candle stands. within the niches are statchoos of who knows what angles or saints, prolly. At the visial center (until the lighting guy came in and messed it all up) is a crucifix and I'd bet serious money (up to, well, as much as $5.00!) that under the crucifix was (and may still be (though I doubt it - no lit candle that I can see to draw one's attention to it) the "Tabernacle" -- the repository for the consecrated bread.
So in THOSE days when there would have been an altar right slap against (or minimally separated from)the reredos (Pronounced REAR dos - which means "That back thing at the back there") the focus would have been on the Tabernacle when the Mass was not being celebrated and on the priest's back when it was. The priest (and I have presided in Episcopal churches with essentially this layout) is going to focus either on the "Gifts" or on the book he's reading from or on the crucifix. He won't be lifting up his head much higher than that, unless he's already made an appointment with his chiropractor.
Then along comes Vatican II with its purported (not not actual) mandate of ugliness. In response to it, some pastor decided that, Word and Sacrament being equal conveyors of grace, they way to "say" that is to put he lectern/pulpit/ambo thingie (from which the Bible is read, intercessory prayers are led, and the sermon is preached) "downstage left" and the altar downstage right. That way the ambo has a very powerful place in terms of stage craft, while the altar has a place of honor, from the POV of the people, to the right of the pulipt, but no longer the exclusive focus.
It ends up looking weird because when the church was designed the focus was supposed to be on the tabernacle and altar.
But the weirdness itself is a kind of testimony to the pastor's intent to honor the Word.
This is by way of explanation, not persuasion.
Certainly the lighting is dramatic, but I think it's inappropriate because it draws the eye away from the focus. Of course, that could have been the photographer who was, as is understandable, taken with the way the light plays.
Got it, you are redefining words again and in so doing you are MOCKING the beliefs of NEARLY ALL Christians including a large percentage of Protestants.
Dear conservativegramma:
First of all, I think you are confused about what the Catholic Church teaches about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Christ is not “re-sacrificed.” At Holy Mass, it is the same sacrifice - outside of time - and “we are there” at the foot of the cross, so to speak. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is outside time and space, as you can see in the Book of Revelation, which describes it.
Secondly, in the First Commandment which deals with the prohibition against graven images, God did not prohibit all statues, only ones which were made with the intent of being worshipped as gods. Otherwise, God would have violated His own commandment in these following Scripture verses:
“And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.” Exodus 25:1,18-20
“And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.” Numbers 21:8
Statues in a Church are holy reminders of those who have gone ahead, sort of like photos of loved ones that you put on your walls or desk. No one would ever accuse you of worshipping your grandchildren, even though you probably have photos of them in your wallet. It is the same with statues, pictures, or icons. They are there to remind us of that holy person and the virtues which he or she had, and to inspire us to follow in their footsteps as we “take up our cross and follow Him” as they did.
As for the statue of Mary that you find so offensive, if you look at her hands, they are pointing down toward the altar, which is right below her. She is showing us that Jesus comes to us, body, blood, soul, and divinity, at every Mass. (See John Chapter 6 for Jesus’ teaching on this. Also see I Corinthians 11:27-29 for St. Paul’s words of warning.) She is showing us the way to Him, which is the whole point.
If you want to know what the Church really teaches, as opposed to what ignorant people say the Church teaches, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is readily available from Amazon or any other bookstore, and is quite easy to understand. There is also a “Compendium” that gives the main points in abbreviated form. It might be better to be armed with the facts, rather than second- or third-hand hearsay.
okaaaay (shaking head here)....how so?
Observations of 30+ years in the rcc. School, masses, events, catechism, meals, watching families of my childhood friends. All point to emptiness of the rcc faith via lack of holiness and almost without exception no one living for the Lord.
Observation - conclusion. It's the way human build an understanding of the way the world works. If you want to call my conclusions based on observations bigotry, you may do so. But your playing the religion card the same way the rev. jackson plays the race card my friend.
Do you deny that the Real Presense is a tenet of faith for the majority of Christians?
Perhaps you should study what most Protestants believe, you will probably find that your personal beliefs in no way resemble even those.
Since your behavior IS bigotry, I shall call it so.
If I were in the group, I'd urge that we meet at set times during the day for prayer and "Spiritual communion". If we had a Bible, we'd be golden! If not, I'd try to id the people who had the most extensive Bible knowledge and get them to give little presentations. I'd organize a daily Rosary. (The normal complement of fingers is all you need for a rosary)
Spiritual communion is an internal "act" involving an act of faith to Christ and a prayer that he come into our hearts and unite us with Him and, in Him, with one another.
No our religion would not fall apart. Not even close. Some of the weak might have a tough time, but that's always true.
I like oysters. Can't we give her the clams.
I say we give her the calamari:
It’s a-time for the rock-a sacrifice, somebody Call-a-Mary.
Thank you both for your input! I will think about your responses for a while, and then (may) get back to you. At any rate, thanks again; both were quite interesting.
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