Posted on 04/30/2008 7:47:49 AM PDT by Pyro7480
Some Protestants accuse the Catholic Church of having dropped one of the 10 Commandments. "You're idolators! You worship statues! And because you do, your Church dropped the commandment against graven images!"
The truth, of course, is that the Catholic Church did not and could not change the Ten Commandments. Latin Catholics and Protestants simply list them differently. It is incredible that such a pernicious lie could be so easily spread and believed, especially since the truth could easily be determined by just looking into the matter. But the rumor lives.
Now, below are the ways in which Protestants and Roman Catholics enumerate the Commandments:
[See link above or below]
So what the heck? What did happen to the commandment about graven images in the Catholic listing? Did the Church just "drop" a commandment?
Um, no. The Old Testament was around long before the time of the Apostles, and the Decalogue, which is found in three different places in the Bible (Exodus 20 and Exodous 34 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21), has not been changed by the Catholic Church. Chapter and verse divisions are a medieval invention, however, and numbering systems of the Ten Words (Commandments), the manner in which they are grouped, and the "short-hand" used for them, vary among various religious groups. Exodus 20 is the version most often referred to when one speaks of the Ten Commandments, so it will be our reference point here....
Authentic Biblical worship of God The Father, Son, Spirit, is fine with me. I don’t need to examine the pedigree of said Biblical wording.
Of course, neither do I need to concur with all the trappings & associations that may have originally gone with that wording’s creation.
DISINFORMATION
VIRTUALLY ALWAYS
Includes some truth.
Certainly the best does.
I appreciate your very thorough response.
However, there is nothing wrong, in our faith, for appealing to the saints for intercession with the Father.
I pray to Christ every day.
The difference between Saul and the witch and Catholics invoking the saints is that Saul was by-passing and disrespecting and disbelieving the power of God and Catholics are asking for help in prayer to God who is the only power.
Death nor principalities can separate us from God so the saints are not separated from us either. God is with us and never leaves us. Just as people ask others who they can see and touch to pray for them and teach them to pray, we believe that the saints are our friends and can also cooperate with us but they actually see the face of God.
We don’t pray for them to manifest themselves to us nor tell us the future or anything, we just believe what the Bible and the Church says about them.
I could go on but I have to go to work.
–verb (used with object)
1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2. to offer (a prayer).
3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4. to make earnest petition to (a person).
5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
6. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to God or to an object of worship.
7. to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.
–verb (used without object)
8. to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.
When I have discussion with individuals that tell me they are praying “to” a saint and I know the Catholic teaching is that they do not pray “to” but “ask for intercession for,” yet the individual to whom I talk does not seem to get it, it has nothing to do with semantics. It is in the meaning the person gives to it themselves. Thus, if my family member tells me they are going to pray to St. Anthony so I will find my camera, I do not feel it necessary to look up the work pray, because I know what the word “to” means, unlike the word “is” which apparently some in this country do not understand.
I forgot to add one other item to my post response to you. When I have had conversation with some people on this topic, they insist it is okay to pray to the saint and when I have questioned this practice was only told I just didn’t understand.
However, the problem is that I understand perfectly well and that is exactly why I do not practice this activity.
Again, it’s not semantics, but the meaning intended by the individual.
“We’re the Catholic Church and we have plenty of lawyers. Bring it on.”
Now that’s funny, I don’t care who you are.
If you understand people praying for each other then you should be able to understand the Communion of the Saints. The saints who have gone before us are not dead, they are alive and they are not constrained by our forms of communication. No, you can’t call them or email them, you don’t need to.
They behold the Face of God! They live in eternity, we live in time. God can and does work through them, just as God can and does work through people who are still on Earth.
Really now, did God NEED Abraham, Moses, Aaron, Isaac, Daniel, Isaiah, Mary, Joseph, the Disciples...? We don’t NEED to pray to the saints God doesn’t NEED any of us, He wants us because He loves us and he created us to love Him.
NOt only that but it is believed that the Apostle’s wrote the Creed at Pentacost and I’m sure you know the Apostle’s Creed includes belief in the “Communion of Saints”.
Yes, St. Monica would be great. She definately knows what it is like to watch someone you love dearly straying from God.
I’ve read the thread now and I know others have answered and you choose not to understand so, go with God, tata.
I ran out a little quickly. It is my practice that I will correspond with someone who really is curious and would like to know but as soon as I realize that a person is putting their own belief of MY faith on me and disregarding most of the replies to them, and or twisting them the way some people twist the Bible to say what they want it to say, I will no longer respond to them.
I have told you and you still seem to believe that praying is worshipping. Whatever, dude, God will inform you in His time.
These things have been addressed thousands of times on FR and you are saying what any number of non-Catholics have said a thousand times. So anyway, I don’t do rerun anymore. You have your faith, live it, and as for me, I will live mine no matter what your opinion.
Nobody told you not to live out your faith as your conscience permits, but at least be intellectually honest about what many people are doing. Just because you practice it your way, don’t think for one second that everyone is doing it “your” way, even amongst “your own.”
Incidentally, I was never curious about this at all so I am utterly clueless as to your comments “dude.”
Actually, in fact, I do try to understand things. I have a hunch that you’ve probably never read anything that would contradict what you believe. I’ve read many things that explain things from both sides (the Catholic beliefs vs. the non-Catholic Christian beliefs)and I can see some points on both sides. I do not try to explain away things by making simplistic statements such as “you choose not to understand.” I have reasons for believing the way I do which are as valid as any I am sure you have. In fact, I believe we are to be able to give reasons for the hope that is in us. Yes, the Bible even says we are to have “reasons,” not just cliches.
I have a hunch that you’ve probably never read anything that would contradict what you believe.
You crack me up. First of all, I am a convert from active Protestantism. The more I studied the Bible, the more Catholic I became. I studied Catholicism for years and read reams of arguments against it and I’ve been active on FR religions threads for at least 8 years.
There is no slander against the Catholic Church that I haven’t read and there has been no-one who could prove to me where the Catholic Church was wrong, except their own opinion and topios.
I would hazard a guess that you haven’t really studied Catholic theology, you just disagree with what you’ve been told by those who are against it.
Well, that clarified THAT. I am happy for you. If you have spent a life and converted, then you must be at peace. I happen to know many more people that have gone the opposite way but I know the road runs both ways. I have read Scott Hahn’s book.
You are wrong about my study of Catholic theology and history. I just didn’t come to the same conclusions as you did. What did happen, however, is a lot of the criticisms I used to have I no longer have. Of course, as with all things, I am still learning and a work in progress.
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