Posted on 04/27/2008 6:33:53 PM PDT by markomalley
truly a convoluted tour de force of scripture.
Two questions should be foremost on a person’s mind when presented with a particular interpretation of scripture:
1) Is belief in this doctrine required for salvation?
2) Is belief in this doctrine required to prevent sin?
I personally would answer no to both questions with regards to either interpretation of Mary’s conception. As such, I will not waste time or creating division over something that is trivial by comparison.
ping for later read
Bad analogy. All those concepts of trinity are clearly stated, it is just the word trinity is not used to tie them together. Much different than the Immaculate Conception, which has zero biblical support.
Look first at two passages in Luke 1. In verse 28, the angel Gabriel greets Mary as "kecharitomene" ("full of grace" or "highly favored"). This is a recognition of her sinless state.
Being highly favored does not imply sinless state.
The best approach to this nonsense. Catholics seem convinced they have to spread the gospel of Mary to save all us heathens.
1) Pelagius and Celestius used Mary, the mother of Jesus, as an example of one born free of original sin. Vincent of Lerins points out the origin of the teaching of the immaculate conception with these words: "Who ever originated a heresy that did not first dissever himself from the consentient agreement of the universality and antiquity of the Catholic Church? That this is so is demonstrated in the clearest way by examples. For who ever before the profane Pelagius attributed so much antecedent strength to Free-will, as to deny the necessity of God's grace to aid it towards every good in every single act? Who ever before his monstrous disciple Celestius denied that the whole human race is involved in the guilt of Adam's sin?"
Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1955), Volume XI, Vincent of Lerins, A Commonitory 24.2, pp. 149-150
2) The Roman Catholic patristic scholar, Walter Burghardt, confirms the patristic and papal rejection of this doctrine historically: 'Post-Augustinian patristic thought on the perfection of Mary reveals two conflicting currents. There is a negative, unfavorable trend rooted in Augustine's anti-Pelagianism; it accentuates the universality of original sin and articulates the connection between inherited sin and any conception consequent upon sinful concupiscence. The root idea is summed up by Leo the Great: 'Alone therefore among the sons of men the Lord Jesus was born innocent, because alone conceived without pollution of carnal concupiscence.' The same concept is discoverable in St. Fulgentius, Bishop of Ruspe in Africa (d. 533), the most significant theologian of his time; in Pope Gregory the Great (d. 604) at the end of the sixth century; and a century later in Venerable Bede, a scholar renowned throughout England' (Juniper Carol, Ed., Mariology (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1955), Volume One, p. 146).
3) "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23
4) "There is none righteous, not even one" - Romans 3:10
"Not even one."
But, but … Oh, never mind. Every time I post to one of these threads, I get racked over the coals by either a self-sanctified catholic or the religious mods. I will just sit back and watch. ;-)
The only creature ever addressed as
FULL OF GRACE!
If something is full, there is no room for anything else; a soul full of grace has no room for even original sin you see.
God is specific about many things. In the Old Testament, we can see all the details as to the Ark of the Covenant which carried manna and the Torah and commandments. Well Our Lady, Mary, carried the very Son of God!
Do we suppose that God is less careful in the womb that would bear the Incarnate Word?
COULD God make Mary sinless from the first moment of her conception?
Would it seem fitting for Him to do so?
Then it is not a stretch to believe that this is exactly what He did!
We hear a lot of talk on these threads pointing out that there are multiple denominations within protestantism as though that is some sort of evidence against protestantism, when in reality the denominations agree on all the major doctrines of Christianity (nature of God, resurrection, salvation by faith, etc.) and only differ on points which do not affect salvation. For those, the denominations say “We accept you as brothers and sisters in Christ and we will not make an issue of those minor areas in which we honestly and prayfully have differing opinions.”
It would be great if the Catholic Church would say the same type of thing to the Protestants on this issue: “Marian theology has nothing to do with salvation and we admit that the Biblical basis for believing as we do is weak (as this article shows), therefore we are no longer going to emphasize it.”
So we know the author of this is really pi$$ed off....
Besides, Mary couldn’t have been sinless, only God is sinless. If she were without sin she would be God!" Mary admitted she was a sinner. She called her Son Yeshua a Savior. How could she have done that if she was not a sinner?
46"And Mary said: "My soul glorifies the Lord 47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior."
Luke 1:46-47
I didn't read any more of this article beyond that.
Can you tell me, I am supposed to disagree with this part of what he said.........why?
Hail Jesus, Full of Grace.
Patrick Madrid is so organized. I love his articles.
How’s Sally? [/obscure SNL reference]
ping for later
Acts 6:8 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Now Stephen, full of grace (divine blessing and favor) and power (strength and ability) worked great wonders and signs (miracles) among the people.
The Evangelical minister was exactly right in what he said about the Immaculate Conception. Exactly right.
How do you read :NAsbU Matthew 1:19 And Joseph her husband,
being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her,
planned to send her away secretly.
Sure, God COULD do anything, but the question is “Did it really happen?”
This is the same argument the Mormons use regarding Joseph Smith: “Don’t you believe God could have spoken to Joseph Smith?” And when you say “I cannot limit an omnipotent God.” They say “Well there you go.” As though possibility is proof. It isn’t.
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