The Annunciation of Ustyug
Novgorod
1110-30
Posted on 04/08/2008 3:40:51 PM PDT by annalex
I can see where Catholics could see this verse as a universal statement of the Motherhood of Mary. But I believe it was specific in time to John. Otherwise, this universal principal would have been mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament - but it is nowhere to be found in the teachings of Paul, Peter, or John.
This is plain wrong, -- read the article.
It is mentioned, in Apocalypse 12 Satan is described as waging war on Mary and her children: "the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God".
Besides, what you are saying is that one among the last words of Christ on the cross was something temporal and purely economic, without importance to the redemptive work He came to accomplish.
“Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Agreed?
But why does that preclude honouring the mother of the Lord as He would?
Theotokos Platytera, Broader than the Heavens
Agreed!
But why does that preclude honouring the mother of the Lord as He would?”
No problem with honoring Mary, but praying to her to intercede with Jesus I have a problem with.
Jesus himself said you pray to the Father in His name
This portrait of Mary is based on scriptures. The Catholic doctrine on Mary goes to the point where you have to do mental gymnastics to try to get around the Biblical Mary. What this shows is you can honor Mary without taking it too far.
Again I have to ask, if Jesus' statement to Mary and John were to be taken universally, then why wouldn't it have been reiterated as a crucial point of doctrine, either implicitly or explicitly, by the apostles throughout the NT?
The Lord’s Prayer, the only prayer Jesus taught as His own, does not include Jesus’ name.
The koine of John 14 indicates that anything asked in Jesus’ name will be granted, not that Christians are forbidden to ask others to ask as well.
Is God the God of the living or the dead?
The koine of John 14 indicates that anything asked in Jesus’ name will be granted, not that Christians are forbidden to ask others to ask as well.”
No. John 14 doesn’t say you CANNOT ask others to ask, but He says it’s not going to work until you ask HIM
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Fair enough.
No one has to pray for Mary’s intercession.
Mnt Man, Were you just given penance?
For about a week I have been trying to get someone to point me to where Catholic Mariology contradicts scripture. I got plenty on how it contradicts various Protestant theological fantasies, but I did not get an answer. May be you can try?
You asked the question and I answered. St. john the Theologian write the Apocalypse and it makes a reference to Mary’s children as all those who obey the commandments. I don’t care how you interpret that to be about Israel, or Nicaragua or Pittsburgh, PA — I answered your question.
1. Mary was conceived of a virgin. The Bible indicates only Jesus was born perfect and sinless. Catholics want to extend Mary to being perfect and sinless, which in my view diminishes the miracle of Christ.
2. Mary remained a perpetual virgin. Reading the Bible one would conclude Mary and Joseph were married and they had other children. If they were not married, why is Joseph referred to as Jesus's father? Without marriage, Joseph would have no relation to Jesus. And trying to blow off all the references to Jesus brothers and sisters as just being cousins or friends is pretty far-fetched.
3. Other things such as the assumption of Mary or Mary being the co-redeemer is completely made up. The co-redeemer talk in my opinion is blasphemy.
4. Mother of God/Heaven vs. Mother of Jesus. In my view, Mother of God and other titles Catholics want to put on Mary, implies much more than what is in the Bible. Using the concept of trinity does not mean the terms God and Jesus are completely interchangeable. When you do, it establishes conflict.
I am sure you can post pages and pages that 'explains' these and other issues concerning Marian doctrine, but in my view it is only rationalization and falls way short of proof.
How about in addition to Christ, perhaps as His first Saint?
How odd, but your view strikes me as nothing more than rationalizations and falls way short of being any sort of proof.
It is not my doctrine that is rationalized without any Biblical support. It is the Catholic doctrine that is rationalized man-made mumbo jumbo which creates apparent conflicts with Biblical text.
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