Posted on 04/01/2008 4:23:02 PM PDT by NYer
They're no longer Catholic or Orthodox. They're pagan.
Which leaves the actual Catholics, who worship only the Blessed Trinity.
So there it is ... the question was simply beneath contempt.
The Torah was memorized in the beginning, it was not written down.. Not until the Septuagint and Masoretic text was the Torah written down.. For much of Isreal's history Gods word written was not encouraged.. Even today most religious Jews hate writing Gods name down.. They omit letters(from the word) to betray this relucence.. Every synagog has shrines for the Torah.. SHRINES.. in gold and brass.. The Torah is worshipped..
No it wasnt beneath contempt.. It was just a question.. Kind of snarky but still only a question.. Excesses in all religions "happen".. even in protestant religion.. Denying the excesses displays weak arguments..
No, it was not just a question. It was a slander masquerading as a question. It was arrogant presumptuousness masquerading as a question.
"Weak arguments" are often designated by being presented as loaded questions. As in this case.
It was and is beneath contempt.
After Sinai, we have received progressive revelation, culminating in Jesus Christ, the Living Word. God's Mind, God's Wisdom, Jesus Christ is fit to be worshipped. The paper, the cloth, the binding is not. Big difference.
True I have a tendency to believe my lying eyes, I'm a terrible person..
You havn't traveled in Latin America much have you?..
The Santoria in Cuba take idols of Babalu, then mold(in clay) RCC idols of Saints(Mary) over them made to look like RCC icons.. then fire and paint them.. And then they worship Bobalu with an "infectuous grin"...
Where are those practices prescribed by the Roman Catholic Church?
They are, as I told you earlier, pagans.
The people you have described are not Catholics. They have mixed santeria (correct spelling) with aspects of Catholicism but they are not—I repeat—not Catholics in any kind of good standing with the Church.
This needs to be made perfectly clear before anyone refers to santeria as “Catholic”.
Also, I see that posters are not allowed to “read minds” on FR religion Forum.
Maybe there ought to be some addressing re: the “heart” reading that goes on here as well.
” my question is not to explain to me what the Protestant range of interpretations of the scripture is, but where the contradiction of the Catholic mariology is with the scripture.”
“I do not ask why sola scriptura people (who depend on warrants for chewing gum, apparently) do not venerate saints, I ask where Catholic praxis is contradicted in the scripture”
This request is similar to Pelosie requesting General Petraeus not to give them a positive report of the surge in Iraq.
“This is a prooftext (Luk 11:28 “But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.”) for veneration of all saints, Mary chief among them.
There is nothing in the verses that says”Mary chief among them”. However, following that logic then all of the following should be equally “venerated” as Mary in RCC praxis.
Mat 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed [are] they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 11:6 And blessed is [he], whosoever shall not be offended in me.
Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.
Rom 4:8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Jam 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.
Ricky Ricardo!
Well, for completeness, I think we should note that Paul doesn’t seem to agree.
Two problems: (1) The one word "rather" gets a mighty specific interpretation in your paraphrase, non impossible but not necessarily in the original.
(2)Shall we argue that Mary did not hear and obey?
Have you read the conversation so far? We've already looked at and discussed that text, and I've offered an interpretation which does not violence to the text. Not that we're done, of course.
Mary says, (Luk 1:48) “For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.”
So it's your contention that They will call her blessed but they will be wrong to do so? The textual tradition is incomplete and the full text is:
“For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed, darn it.”
No, what I said was,
"Jesus responds, not by denying that Mary is blessed, but says in comparative terms those are greater blessed that hear and obey.
Luk 11:28 “But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.”
Jesus uses the same comparative formula concerning the righteousness of the Pharisees and the person of John the Baptist. He does not deny that the Pharisees are righteous, He says that kingdom righteousness exceeds that. He does not deny that John the Baptist is considered great, He says that those of the kingdom are greater."
Notice the "δέ" translated "but" in Luke 11:26 is the same word translated "notwithstanding" in Mat 11:11.
So, if we stipulate that some RC's worship Saints (which I don't, but were I to) then I should admit that we all do and I do and that that's what we teach? That doesn't make sense. Paul VI once prostrated himself before some Orthodox Patriarch and kissed his shoesies. Is it silly and disingenuous to question whether Paul VI was worshipping the patriarch?
What we have here is a kind of provincialism. You guys are limited in your language of gesture and consequently you see a protsration and think it is "Latria" because you cannot imainge a portration for any other reason, while we have a far more expressive and enthusiastic language of gesture.It may not be disingenuous but it's silly.
Oh yeah, and mind reading. That good old Sola Scriptura evidently has room in it for overlooking what is said about how only God can see what's going on inside. Sola Scriptura when it doesn't interfere with the assault on the Papists.
Look how ugly this has gotten. And MY part in that is because when I lay out a lengthy discussion it is completely ignored and when I refute an argument I am told I am just in a sate of denial.
And then the general statement about how all Catholics Worship Mary is excused on the grounds that some prostrate themselves before images of saints.
This is not about the Truth. It's about winning.
Regarding the "blessed", indeed all these are blessings worthy of veneration. It is primarily through the example of the saints that we learn the Beatitudes.
The fact that Mary is chief among the saints comes not from her being simply "blessed", although that she most certainly is, but filled with grace, "kecharitomene" (I am sure the "doctor" has the proper phonics on that as well), -- as a Mother of God and Queen of Heaven, through whom the abundance of grace came to un in the person of Christ.
And yes, while Mary heard the word and kept it as nobody else did, we do also venerate those whom we believe to be in the company of the blessed. Not "equally" but certainly similarly. Ever hear of the LItany of the saints? A Novena to Sainte ( A little French lingo there) Therese of Lisieux?
Then you all tell us that we are idolaters for doing so. But we DO venerate all the saints. Heck, we even have a day, you may have heard of ....
I am at peace since I have God's Holy words as my final authority, not the false traditions of men.
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