Posted on 03/20/2008 2:29:23 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
Elijah Abel, Jane Manning James and Green Flake hold a unique, but rather obscure place in Mormon history: all three joined the church in its infancy and all three were black people.
They also remained faithful after policies were altered and black people were denied full membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Abel was the first black man ordained to the priesthood in 1836. James worked in the home of church founder Joseph Smith and followed the faith's next president, Brigham Young, across the Plains to Utah in 1848. Flake came to Utah as well, but as the slave of white members. He was freed by Young in 1854.
Such stories won't remain unknown if Darius Gray and Margaret Young have anything to do with it - they've chronicled the struggles of black Latter-day Saints in a new documentary "Nobody Knows: The Untold Story of Black Mormons."
"To me, it's parallel with the story of African Americans, period," said Gray, who is black and has been a member of the church since 1964. "We talk about the black history and contributions being either lost, stolen or strayed generally, and it's the same within the LDS church."
Nearly six years in the making, the film is an extension of a longtime partnership between Gray, a former broadcaster, and Young, a writing teacher at the church-owned Brigham Young University. Together the pair have written three books on black Mormons.
Wrapped in soulful black spirituals, the 72-minute film takes viewers on a journey from the days of Mormon pioneers to the 1960s civil rights era, when some university athletic teams refused to compete against BYU because the church openly discriminated against black people. It ends with current black church members sharing their own stories - good and bad...
(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...
Reading minds again, I see.
Reading minds again, I see.
No, bitterness is something emanate from another...
Just curious GF, you realize that most Christian churches didn’t have blacks in the priesthood back in the days of slavery, were they all racist? Most Christian churches today don’t allow women to hold the priesthood either, are they sexist?
At various times in the bible, the priesthood & none other where allowed in the temple. The Jews were the only ones who could hold the priesthood. Was the Lord racist back then? What would you say about that today? Could it be that the Lord has His way of doing things that perhaps we might not understand w/ our finite minds?
BTW, this was an attempt to have a reasoned discussion. The questions were meant to illicit a civil discussion. I think it was asked in a civil manner. I don't understand the reasoning behind your rebuttal. Where they not legitimate questions to a very interesting topic? Why the apparent angst?
That notwithstanding, have a wonderful Easter ole’ Grey. It's a great time of the year to give thanks to our Savior & remember all He has done for us.
President Wilford Woodruff said: “No [one] will receive of the celestial glory except it be through the ordinances of the House of God” (in Journal of Discourses, 19:361; see also D&C 84:20–22). Ordinances that are necessary for us to return to Heavenly Father include baptism, confirmation, the sacrament, conferral of the Melchizedek Priesthood (for brethren), the temple endowment, and temple marriage.
The endowment is a sacred ordinance performed only in the temple. President Brigham Young said, “Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation” (in Journal of Discourses, 2:31).
The Purpose of Priesthood Ordinances
Blacks were refused the priesthood prior to 1978. Please cite the source stating a male may enter the Celestial kingdom without receiving the endowment. Also, please cite sources indicating a BLACK male could have entered the Celestial kingdom (Celestial glory) without the endowment.
Also, please explain how women are allowed "through the veil" by being called by a male into the Celestial kingdom, and can a woman enter the HIGHEST degree of said Celestial kingdom without being called by a priesthood holding male?
If blacks were ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood, prior to 1978, and I mean ALL black male members, not just the token few in the early church history, please cite the appropriate source. I would be very interested in seeing them since you state " Blacks have always been promised the same eternal blessings as everyone else. Period."
I don't understand the reasoning behind your question. Are these not legitimate questions to a very interesting topic? Why the apparent angst? What is uncivil about them?
OOps...forgot to thank you for your good Easter wishes and I wish you the same.
You do know that those blacks that died before having the priesthood, & endowments performed can & will have them done for them, just as w/ all others who didn't the those opportunities in this life. Pretty simple.
As far as women not being able to gain Celestial glory w/o their husbands (priesthood), surely you realize as well that the men cannot enter by themselves either. The endowment is all about couples not singles. It's a family thing as you would certainly know as an ex-member.
Question is, did you really not know these things, or are you just purposely trying to stir the pot?
Also, are you avoiding my questions in the previous post, or do you just not know? I really am curious about your thoughts, it's wasn't meant to be a straw man.
Also, please explain how women are allowed “through the veil” by being called by a male into the Celestial kingdom, and can a woman enter the HIGHEST degree of said Celestial kingdom without being called by a priesthood holding male?
If blacks were ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood, prior to 1978, and I mean ALL black male members, not just the token few in the early church history, please cite the appropriate source. I would be very interested in seeing them since you state “ Blacks have always been promised the same eternal blessings as everyone else. Period.”
I don't understand the reasoning behind your question. Are these not legitimate questions to a very interesting topic? Why the apparent angst? What is uncivil about them?
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The answers to your questions are easy to find, if you want to.
The way you keep repeating them indicates to me that you do not want to know more.
Forget it looking like you do not care to learn, you have said so a couple of times.
This statement does not apply to the fact that until 1978 Blacks were NOT promised the same eternal blessings, as they were not allowed to hold the priesthood. You do know that those blacks that died before having the priesthood, & endowments performed can & will have them done for them, just as w/ all others who didn't the those opportunities in this life. Pretty simple.
When I was a member, there was no such promise to blacks. I was there in times when anyone with even a drop of negro blood was forbidden to enter the temple.
I don't know what question you are referring to in your "other post". If bringing up the history of the mormon church and blacks is stirring the pot, then yes, that's what I am doing.
Blacks were forbidden the priesthood and all the attendant "blessings" attached to it including leadership positions and temple ordinances until 1978. It's not something that can be glossed over with "NOW, after their death, those blessings can be offered to them."
I doubt that most blacks would see it as quite simple.
My thoughts are that it would be wise for mormons to simply own their history with blacks without conditional "they will have their chance now that they are dead" statements.
Since you are for questioning, why do you not simply own your church history regarding blacks and the priesthood?
I'm signing off for this evening...you have time to consider that.
I still haven't seen any source that would provide proof of that statement.
The way you keep repeating them indicates to me that you do not want to know more.
Forget it looking like you do not care to learn, you have said so a couple of times.
I don't appreciate your accusations. Take them elsewhere,
“Therefore if a Negro joins the Church through the waters of baptism and is confirmed by the laying on of hands and then he remains faithful and true to the teachings of the Church and in keeping the commandments the Lord has given, he will come forth in the first resurrection and will enter the celestial kingdom of God.
What other church can make a better promise? Moreover we know whereof we speak, for the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored with all its powers and divine authority.
The Negro who accepts the doctrines of the Church and is baptized by an authorized minister of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is entitled to salvation in the celestial kingdom or the highest heaven spoken of by Paul.
(President Joseph Feilding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol. 4 Page 171)
And you were a member, & really didn't know this? You say that when you were a member, there was no such promise for the blacks. Wrong! They could not hold the priesthood or go to the temple, but exaltation has always been held out for them, ALWAYS! Yes, period! Just how long were you an active member?
If one looks at things from an eternal perspective, the only relevant matter is where we end up. Blacks will end up in the same places we all will, including the Celestial Kingdom. I recognize this is a difficult topic for you. I hope this has shed some light for you. However, I would sincerely ask that you ask first before spilling false doctrines about the church which has obviously been the case here. You will find nowhere in the church the doctrine that blacks would not be able to inherit Celestial Glory as their white counterparts. Nowhere. Ever.
I wish you & yours once again a wonderful & blessed Easter my FRiend.
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not reading your mind, just observing your writings.
The answer is out there and can be found with a little effort.
I have given simple answers like this before and been told it wasn't true, so I figure if you would do the work yourself, you would believe it when you find it.
"Until 1978, persons with any known trace of black African ancestry were not permitted to enter a Mormon temple, even if they were otherwise worthy members of the Church. Joseph Smith taught that Negroes (blacks) are the descendants of Cain. (J. S. History, vol. 4, p. 501)
Brigham Young was equally adamant about the status of the blacks. Young said; "Blacks are cursed with a flat nose and black skin". (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, pp. 290-291) "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." Brigham Young also said "…that if the priesthood was ever given to the Blacks, on that very day and hour, if we should do so, the priesthood will be taken from this church." (Brigham Young Addresses, p. 61)
Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith said: "They are an inferior race, and their intelligence is stunted."
Apostle Bruce McConkie said: "The Negroes were less valiant in the preexistence, and therefore spiritually restricted."
From Wikipedia, From the end of the nineteenth century until 1978, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did not allow black men of African descent to be ordained to the priesthood or allow black men or women of African descent to participate in temple ordinances such as the Endowment and sealing that the church teaches are necessary for the highest degree of salvation. In the early church, at least two black people were ordained by Joseph Smith, Jr., but they were not permitted by later presidents of the church to participate in temple ordinances.
From the Neil Maxwell Institute at BYU: The final two ordinances necessary for exaltation, the endowment and marriage for time and eternity, can only be performed in "houses of the Lord," that is, temples of the LDS Church.
The Doctrine of Exaltation, or Becoming a God
FARMS
The story of Elijah Abel and his activity in the Church is significant for several reasons. First, Abel's changing status was a microcosm of what happened to all Mormon blacks during the nineteenth century. Up until the 1840s, Mormon blacks were accepted in full Mormon fellowship including the right to receive the priesthood. However, by 1849 this was [p.139]no longer the ease; Mormon black priesthood denial was recognized as a churchwide practice. Even though Abel "got in under the wire" in receiving the priesthood, he and all other black Mormons were unable to participate in temple ordinances considered essential for full Mormon salvation.
Elijah Abel and the Changing Status of Blacks within Mormonism
“The Negro is an unfortunate man. He has been given a black skin. But that is as nothing compared with that greater handicap that he is not permitted to receive the Priesthood and the ordinances of the temple, necessary to prepare men and women to enter into and enjoy a fullness of glory in the celestial kingdom [i.e., godhood].”
- Apostle George F. Richards, Conference Report, April 1939, p. 58
Again, you said: but exaltation has always been held out for them, ALWAYS!
And, finally....."In 1954, Elder Mark E. Peterson, a Mormon apostle, said:
"Think of the Negro, cursed as to the Priesthood. Are we prejudiced against him? Unjustly, sometimes we are accused of having such a prejudice. But what does the mercy of God have for him? This negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa—if that negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get a celestial resurrection." (Race Problems--As They Affect the Church, August 27, 1954, address at CES convention at Brigham Young University)
So, in 1954, blacks could enter the Celestial kingdom AS SERVANTS....but not the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom...Quoting you again: but exaltation has always been held out for them, as their white counterparts, ALWAYS!
I was a member for years during the period of the 40s-70s when I heard many times from the podium in LDS chapels, stories of alert temple workers who had a "bad" feeling about a certain couple who had come to be sealed and would not let them continue, and it was later discovered that one or another of them had "a 1/32 of negro blood." This was presented as a very GOOD thing.
Quoting your post, again: I recognize this is a difficult topic for you. I hope this has shed some light for you. However, I would sincerely ask that you ask first before spilling false doctrines about the church which has obviously been the case here. You will find nowhere in the church the doctrine that blacks would not be able to inherit Celestial Glory as their white counterparts. Nowhere. Ever.
I know this is a difficult subject for you, but I would ask YOU sincerely to do some research and you will see there was MUCH controversy over allowing blacks to have the priesthood in the church's history and there was NO promise of exaltation to blacks in the early times. How long have YOU been a member?
Do you have the full information from the title page so I can get me a copy.
thanks,
fred
As I stated earlier, those blacks that did not have the opportunity to have the temple work done in this life will have that opportunity afforded them just as w/ all those of God's children who didn't in this life. It's not that hard to follow GF. That is the official doctrine. Period.
Perhaps the following might shed some additional enlightenment:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Blacks_go_to_heaven_as_slaves
Now, I've answered your questions, but yet you have failed to answer mine. Why is that? How many Christian churches, perhaps yours included, allowed blacks to hold the priesthood in the days of slavery? Is the answer to embarrassing for you to answer, especially given your tone re: fallacious LDS beliefs?
In final, how many different opinions have there been among Christian clergy throughout the decades & centuries for that matter re: race & blacks in general? Tell me GF, who's right? Who's the true Christian church out there? Is it yours? If so, what's the name of that church & tell me why you feel it's the true church? Please spare me the “all Christian churches are true as long as they preach Christ” mantra. There are far too many varying opinions on important doctrines for that to be the case. The wars in Ireland would certainly indicate that some important Christian churches don't believe in the everyone's right deal.
ROTFL...moving the goal post are you? Numbers 8 and 12 on the list.
My points have been listed in my posts, and can be either accepted or rejected by readers. I'm not wasting any further time with your multiple-choice strawmen, Reno. My aim is to see that the truth gets out to the public, not to convince apologists.
You have a happy Easter, now.
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1. How you interpret it is wrong... |
You are right though, it's time to hang it up for another day. We're both headed into Easter which is very important to both of us. It would be better for us to go into that celebration w/ the right spirit, something that won't come easily by continuing this tete-a-tete.
Despite our differences, I applaud your tenacity for what you believe even though I question the delivery at times. Have a wonderful Easter celebrating what I think we can both agree is the greatest gift & blessing of all time. My best to you & yours.
Heretic!
The Word of God is CONSTANT!!
--MormonDude(Uh... except for that polygamy thing.)
Hear Ye!
Hear Ye!
Get a Second Chance at Heaven!!
Only thru the LDS Organization, Inc. - based in SLC UT, can you get a deal like this!!!
--MormonDude(Ignore those OTHER groups that claim to be MORMON; but WE won't let them! Only WE can help you! BELIEVE today!)
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