Posted on 03/16/2008 7:15:05 AM PDT by markomalley
Oh that religious leaders around the world would recognize that the US is the one force putting lives on the line in the name of peace in Iraq. If they would publicly endorse our peacemakers in the Mideast it would come quickly and effectively.
Our armed force personnel who have laid down their lives, in fact all coalition and Iraqi forces who have fallen, that the people of Iraq may come to know peace, have IMHO, followed the example of Christ of self-sacrifice that we remember so vividly this time of the year.
That's true. Technically, his remarks would not be considered a sermon or homily as they were delivered during his Angelus address.
He urged them to raise their heads and reconstruct their life through "reconciliation, forgiveness, justice and coexistence among tribal, ethnic and religious groups."
This is the quote from the pope's remarks that I suggested were consistent with preaching the gospel, because this is indeed "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." It definitely falls under the aegis of "Love your neighbor. Love your enemy."
Interestingly enough, it echoes Gen. Petreaus's comments of last week, in which he condemned the lack of reconciliation within the Iraqi government. These words also reenforce what the cardinal told the Chaldeans at the funeral of Archbishop Rahho. They were told to not flinch from their Christian obligations and seek revenge or retribution.
Meanwhile, an entire church is being persecuted, members of his flock are being gunned down in front of their church, an archbishop is kidnapped and found dead, and some people think the pope shouldn't give his lamentations voice, but rather should focus his attention on sex abuse. My oh my.
Your difficulty is the lack of precision in what you rant.
Crimes against thousands of children were committed by thousands of priests. And often covered up by their bishops (and police officers, and prosecutors, and judges).
Some of these children were very young, a relatively small percentage were also female, and a relatively small minority of the priests committing these crimes committed them against such victims.
But over 80% of the victims were boys, and the great majority were either entering puberty or had already entered puberty.
The crime in these cases wasn't pedophilia but rather ephebophilia, and in particular, homosexual ephebophilia.
There is a difference between these crimes.
That you miss the difference allows the bishops to get away with their sleight of hand. They've conned folks like you into thinking this was primarily a problem of pedophile priests. That was a component, but not the vastly larger component.
The vastly larger component was the admission of homosexual men into the priesthood in large numbers, permitting the emergence of a homosexual culture within seminaries and within the priesthood. Apparently, ephebophilia is a rampant disorder of the homosexual culture - preying on young men, and boys-becoming-men is one of their special sicknesses.
But to admit that the problem was largely one of homosexual ephebophilia would be to admit that the problem was permitting homosexual men into the priesthood in the first place. Over time, I've come to the conclusion that a significant number of our bishops are likely homosexuals themselves. Thus, the desire to hide the true nature of the crime, as it would leave them defenseless against their own consciences.
“I am very disappointed in you.”
Oh my. What shall I do.
sitetest
At the end of this solemn celebration in which we have meditated on Christ's Passion, I would like to recall the late Chaldean archbishop of Mosul, Monsignor Paulos Faraj Rahho, who tragically died a few days ago. His beautiful witness of fidelity to Christ, to the Church and his people, whom he did not want to abandon despite numerous threats, moves me to cry out forcefully and with distress: Enough with the bloodshed, enough with the violence, enough with the hatred in Iraq! And at the same time I make an appeal to the Iraqi people, who for five years have endured the consequences of a war that has provoked upheaval in its civil and social life: Beloved Iraqi people, lift up your heads and let it be you yourselves who, in the first place, rebuild your national life! May reconciliation, forgiveness, justice and respect for the civil coexistence of tribes, ethnic groups and religious groups be the fraternal way to peace in the name of God!
The homosexual problem of the priesthood is as you say - and unfortunately it still has not been properly addressed. So, are we to debate the crime of "pedophila" versus " ephebophilia?"
In either case, by the law - these were children. That is clear, and the crimes remain. Is a 7 year boy old more of a victim of rape by a priest than a 11 or 13 year old boy?
Does this age difference somehow lessen the impact of this enormous crime?
I realize that some homosexual men (priests included) favored pre-teen or early teen boys (and in very rare instances girls).
The number of criminal priests still numbered in the thousands. But I can see your point that the vast majority preyed upon boys on the verge of, or in the stages of, puberty.
So - where are we? We are still faced with a tragedy of vast dimension. Moreover, the church has paid billions, many lives were shattered, many victims or their families committed suicide.
It appears Satan is having a field day.
Thank you for your response and clarification. I realize now you understand this problem better than I imagined.
“And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven.”
- Matthew 23:9
So I assume, then, that you address(ed) your paternal parent as “Frank” or “George”
Take the crap you’re spewing someplace else...
“So, are we to debate the crime of ‘pedophila’ versus ‘ephebophilia?’”
Adamantly.
“In either case, by the law - these were children. That is clear, and the crimes remain. Is a 7 year boy old more of a victim of rape by a priest than a 11 or 13 year old boy?”
There are differences between sex acts with seven year olds and sex acts with seventeen year olds. But that's not the point.
“Does this age difference somehow lessen the impact of this enormous crime?”
Of course, in some ways. If you knew of a 25 year old man having a “consensual” sexual relationship with a 16 year old girl, you would judge that differently than if he were having sex with a six year old girl.
But again, that misses the point.
“So - where are we?”
Well, first, it would be nice if folks got the facts straight. Most folks have at least some of the facts confused. The bishops, for example, view this as a scandal of pedophile priests, when truly, it was a scandal of homosexual priests.
Most folks make that same mistake.
Also, most folks think that the Church did nothing about this until they were forced to by exposure in the early 2000s. That's also untrue. The Church knew what was going on, from the top levels, by the early 1980s. Although the Church didn't seem to act strongly enough or quickly enough to suit Fr. Daley, the fact is that the Church DID start acting at that time, the problem peaked in the 1980s, and had declined over 90% by the mid-1990s. All without the scandals, the headlines, or any help from secular sources.
The Church took actions to reduce the incidence of abuse by priests, and over the course of a little more than a decade, its actions reduced the incidence by over 90%. That's not nothing.
Another error that nearly everyone makes is to think that the Church conspired apart from the rest of society to cover this all up.
That's a brazen lie. The Church kept these cases quiet at the suggestion of the mental health professionals involved, often at the behest of the families of the victims, and often at the request and with the assistance of the secular authorities.
Many evil things were done. Many of them were done out of evil intentions, sometimes by genuinely bad persons, but many, too, out of honest intentions but by stupid and ignorant persons who had lost their way. Especially bishops.
“We are still faced with a tragedy of vast dimension.”
The underlying tragedy - the abuse of children - was great, but the dimension was somewhat limited. The Jay report estimates approximately 10,000 victims and 4,000 perpetrators over the course of 50 years.
10,000 victims is a lot, especially to each victim. And 4,000 priests represents fully 4% of the entire priesthood in the United States during that time.
But 10,000 is out of many millions, and 4% still leaves 96% who did not commit these horrible crimes.
I don't see similar rage in the media for the hundreds of thousands of public school children who are sexually molested EVERY SINGLE YEAR by public school teachers and workers, numbering in the tens of thousands or perhaps even a hundred thousand or more EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Yet the dimension of the tragedy exceeds this one by an order of magnitude or two. Or three. I don't see anyone trying to sue the public schools - and their supervising government structures - for tens of billions or hundreds of billions, or even trillions of dollars, as they've sued the Catholic Church. I don't see concomitant loss of "faith" in public schools.
In fact, most of the people I see carrying on the loudest about the evils of the Catholic Church in regard to this scandal, I don't see them crusading loudly and virulently against the evils of the public schools of the United States. Occasionally, I'll see a token acknowledgment that there may be a problem there, but often, I actually see denial on the part of the Church's attackers.
So forgive me if, while acknowledging the faults, errors, and crimes of our bishops and some of our priests, I hold a cynical view of those who are otherwise critics of the Church. I do not believe the critics are of good faith.
In perspective, properly viewed, with the actual facts, rather than the distorted stories promoted by the media, with the often complicit, guilty silence of the hierarchy, it was a terrible and serious problem, but not one, ultimately of “vast dimension,” and not one that should have undermined faith in the Church.
“It appears Satan is having a field day.”
Indeed, but not principally off the actual facts of what happened, but off the distortions, misunderstandings, and often deliberate misrepresentations of the truth of things, using the lies about what happened to undermine the Church and faith in her.
That's why it's important to make accurate distinctions, to tell the truth accurately and carefully, to say what's what, and to say what's not what.
sitetest
Perhaps you have not heard about his initiative to have a dialogue with Muslims. This is part of an effort to encourage them to turn to Christ. He doesn't have to give a litany of everything he is trying to accomplish at every public Angelus prayer. He is far wiser and more subtle than you give him credit for.
Now that would take courage.
When the MSM and their radical Muslim friends took a quote completely out of context from a lecture he gave and twisted the meaning and intent of his talk he stood by what he said. Even in the face of churches being damaged and a nun being murdered. During his trip to Turkey he refused, against the advice of his security detail, to wear a bulletproof vest. That is courage, fortitude and faith.
Thanks for finding the actual quote. I suspected there was something missing.
Losers who post knee-jerk observations about pedophila to every thread involving the Pope should at least try to make themselves credible by identifing their own faith, which is, of course, without sin. You’re a “practicing Catholic” the same way I started for the Giants in the Super Bowl. No Catholic who was paying even the slighted bit of attention would have accused the Pope of being a participating member of the Hitler Youth.
Crap? Listen pal - the words from Matthew 23 are from Christ Himself. If you have a problem with them, take it up with Him.
Furthermore, your attempt at an analogy sinks faster than the Bismark. Have you not read Matthew Chapter 23?
The context of what He said is entirely a warning to religious figures to not give themselves authority and honor that they do not possess.
It had nothing to do with your parents (as you so feebly tried to infer).
______________________________________________________________________
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[b] 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
__________________________________________________________________________________
Did you even read it? Can you now tell me Christ was dictating that children had to call their parents by their names, or was He telling us what He demands vis a vis religious figures? I am not saying the Pope is not serving the cause of Christ – but don’t violate what Christ Himself teaches.
Is that so hard?
“In either case, by the law - these were children. That is clear, and the crimes remain. Is a 7 year boy old more of a victim of rape by a priest than a 11 or 13 year old boy?”
You said:
There are differences between sex acts with seven year olds and sex acts with seventeen year olds. But that's not the point.
As Ronald Reagan said, "There you go again!"
I asked you if the case was sexual rape of a 11 or 13 year old boy - and you bumped it up to 17 in your answer.
Why did you do that? I'll tell you why - you are attempting to spin this and to soften the blow of the reality of this tragedy. You are trying to move the age up to a degree that you think makes it more of an adult on "adult" encounter.
When I first responded to you, I objected to your attempt to minimize this tragedy.
Sadly, you are continuing to do so.
All you had to do was admit there were more than "a few" priest who had done this horrible thing against children. But at every turn, you try and change direction, draw fences around this or that, or make it appear that the rape of child of "X" age is better than a child of "Y" age.
Why are doing that?
As to the rest of your response that the church acted swiftly, appropriately, and with justice to this scandal - the facts are not on your side. Hundreds of law suits and billions of dollars speak to that. So do thousands of news articles, interviews, and books on the subjects.
Try reading just this:
Catholic Clergy Sexual Abuse Meets the Civil Law
The tragedy of what happened has a very human face to me. I am appalled by your attempts to minimize it. You may post back to me and say "But I am not trying to minimize it." Yes - you are.
That's a brazen lie. The Church kept these cases quiet at the suggestion of the mental health professionals involved, often at the behest of the families of the victims, and often at the request and with the assistance of the secular authorities.
A lie? Uggghh. Mental Health professionals urged the victims to not speak out?! What?? Talk about a lie. The church intimidated these victims and their families. This is documented in court records.
You just don't get it. You know, the tears of the abuse victims speak the truth much louder than your attempts to stifle them.
This is the quote from the pope's remarks that I suggested were consistent with preaching the gospel, because this is indeed "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." It definitely falls under the aegis of "Love your neighbor. Love your enemy."
While loving your enemy and your neighbor are wonderful teachings from the Lord, they are not the heart of the Gospel.
I believe that this is the Gospel Message.
Meanwhile, an entire church is being persecuted, members of his flock are being gunned down in front of their church, an archbishop is kidnapped and found dead, and some people think the pope shouldn't give his lamentations voice, but rather should focus his attention on sex abuse.
My initial response in this thread was not along the lines of the sexual abuse issue. It was between two other Freepers where that issue came up - and I responded with my thoughts and feelings on the matter (which is what we do here).
I can understand the Pope is hurt, frustrated, and angry with the torture and murder of Catholic missionaries and clergy.
Please accept my prayers to them. They are true martyrs to the faith, and I didn't in any way mean to marginalize that tragedy. If I did, then I apologize to you.
Take care.
Do you remember back a few years when you railed against me because I told you that Cardinal McCarrick was a homosexual?
I know you probably want video evidence, but if you Google it - there are now many, many articles and people that have come forward to say this is true.
“As Ronald Reagan said, ‘There you go again!’”
When you can lose the insulting attitude, get back to me.
It's clear that you didn't read my first post well, and badly mangled its meaning. Now you wish to distort the meaning of what else I write. If you wish to play that game, at least do it without the insults.
I believe that you were once a Catholic, and no longer practice the Faith?
sitetest
“Do you remember back a few years when you railed against me because I told you that Cardinal McCarrick was a homosexual?”
I spoke out against anyone who made that accusation without proof.
If you can make the accusation and back it up, go for it, is what I said. If you can't, then you're just a common, cheap gossip, as well as a violator of the Eighth Commandment.
sitetest
Spoken like Walter Mondale.
I am beginning to find out that anyone who challenges you is "insulting."
Yes - I left the Catholic church and I am Evangelical Christian - just as Rev. Billy Graham and Dr. Ravi Zacharias are.
I told you on one of the Mormon threads that I still admire the church, and your devotion to it. I consider Catholics brothers and sisters in Christ.
“Yes - I left the Catholic church and I am Evangelical Christian - just as Rev. Billy Graham and Dr. Ravi Zacharias are.”
That's all I needed to know.
Thanks,
sitetest
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