Posted on 03/15/2008 10:17:55 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper
More than once during these talks I referred to Luther and what always occurred to me as his destructive influence. I pointed out that even in such an admirable book as Rohan Butler's “The Roots of National Socialism” the spiritual origins of Nazism and Luther's influence had not been given the necessary importance. Then I was asked if I would be prepared to elaborate to them—about a dozen of the very senior boys, that is—my own views on Luther and Lutheranism. I agreed—with the proviso that they would be my own views and nothing else. Admittedly, I had read more on Luther and about Luther than on most other subjects. But I wanted to make it quite clear that I would not speak to them with the voice of a great authority, but would merely give them my own interpretation. I told them, moreover, that I should try to prove how dangerous it is to accept legends; and that the picture I had of Luther and his influence was thoroughly contradictory of the customary Luther of the legend.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicapologetics.info ...
Finally!! Thanks chaplain.
G: There is one small technicality for a certain few. Christ became sin for us. We are cloaked in His righteousness, He bore our sin.
Now you've done it G. ;-0
See I told you G.
If all you have is works, works, works Faith Alone is tough to understand.
This edict was not for "Protestant churches," but for what Hitler envisioned as the "National Reich Church."
Lutheranism, being a state-sponsored religion, was taken over by Hitler, and most dissenting pastors were replaced by men who would not work against the goals of the Third Reich.
The primary difference in all this, Campion, is that we Protestants today denounce all aid and comfort to the enemy while Catholics are still either denying it or defending it.
Wouldn't what's good for the goose be good for the gander apply?
Yup...and there have been numerous threads concerning Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust and the Catholic Church and the Holocaust and relationship with Nazi Germany, and I am sure there will be more..but....this thread is about Luther. While Catholics have refuted the arguments on those threads (or attempted to..depends on your perspective), only a couple of folks have even attempted to refute the claims of the author on this thread...WHY? Instead they change the subject to avoid it.
AMEN!
And thus we have what is the greatest divide between the RCC and Bible-believing Christians. The RCC errs in its understanding of the Christian's justification by and for and through Jesus Christ alone.
Christ has cleansed us from our sins by His atoning work on the cross. All by grace and grace alone.
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." -- Hebrews 10:17-23"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
-- Raul Hilberg, on Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's earlier book, Hitler's Willing Executioners
Raul Hilberg was probably the pre-eminent Holocaust historian in the world, author of the three-volume The Destruction of the European Jews. He was an atheist of Polish-Romanian Jewish extraction, who fled the Nazis at the age of 13. He received a Ph.D. from Columbia, and spent his teaching career at the University of Vermont.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Goldhagen's scholarship, from someone who has forgotten more about the Holocaust than Goldhagen knows.
Gamecock says your sins are only covered, as with a cloak.
(Luther said effectively the same thing.)
Are they cleansed, or just covered?
We are "clean," Campion, even while we yet sin because Christ has paid for ALL our sins IN FULL. That's the miracle of it all.
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 4:4-9"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
By the grace of God and the gift of the Holy Spirit who leads our sanctification, we will want to sin less and less. But all men die with some tinge of Adam's stain on them. Thank God, Christ has paid for even that sinful remnant.
The primary difference is that we're standing up for historical accuracy and truth, and you guys are just looking for ammunition to discredit us.
Thank you for admitting that the Protestant church in Germany was heavily co-opted by the state.
Ever heard of Clemens August Graf von Galen? Do you know what he did?
Most Protestants will agree that Luther carried a lot of baggage which was shackled to his back by his anti-semitic upbringing in the church of Rome.
It is the fundamental difference. The sacrifice was sufficient, or it wasn't.
We preach Christ Crucified.
Luther said that the sinner was covered by Christ's righteousness like snow covers a dungheap.
Scripture says that "our God is a consuming fire".
What happens when a consuming fire encounters a snow-covered dungheap?
How is that possible? He had the Scriptures.
LOL. Do you guys have any capability whatsoever to admit that anything bad isn't Rome's fault?
Luther's antisemitism 26 years after he broke with Rome, and 20 years after he wrote a very pro-Semitic paper ("That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew") ... Rome's fault.
Protestant churches, often filled mostly with people who've never been Catholic, wandering into goofiness and sometimes apostasy ... Rome's fault. (Yes, I read your threads.)
Rainy day ... Rome's fault.
Bad sandwich at lunch ... Rome's fault.
Wind musses your hair before a big date ... Rome's fault.
What's it like to go through life blaming everything bad on the big, bad, ugly old Pope?
Astounding. Do you not recognize the covering of Christ?
"I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee." -- Psalm 91:2-7"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." -- 1 John 1:7
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