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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The only "condition" for our salvation is Jesus Christ on the cross whose blood was shed for His sheep.

Why "only"? Unless you are born of water in the spirit, you cannot inherit the Kingdom. Seems to me to be a condition.

Our baptism is by the Holy Spirit who employs water as a sign and symbol of our status as His adopted children. The water does not save anyone. God alone by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit saves the fallen sinner. Take your eyes off the material word and raise them to the spiritual world. That's where salvation resides.

Ah, but not merely a sign and symbol! The Holy Spirit employs water as an external sign and symbol of an internal/spiritual regeneration.

Of course water itself does not save anyone. Of course the regeneration of the Holy Spirit is what saves. But what John is saying here is that they go together. Water *and* the Spirit. Sacramental theology 101. :)

149 posted on 02/28/2008 12:28:38 PM PST by Claud
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To: Claud; Lord_Calvinus
The Holy Spirit employs water as an external sign and symbol of an internal/spiritual regeneration.

The water itself has no power to regenerate. It is God alone who regenerates the fallen heart by the Holy Spirit confirming the covenant of grace between God and His family, a sign and seal of this grace being found in the sacraments, an "external sign and symbol."

WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH
CHAPTER XXVII
Of the Sacraments
I. Sacraments are holy signs and seals of the covenant of grace, immediately instituted by God, to represent Christ and his benefits, and to confirm our interest in him: as also to put a visible difference between those that belong unto the Church, and the rest of thw world; and solemnly to engage them to the service of God in Christ, according to his Word.

II. There is in every sacrament a spiritual relation, or sacramental union, between the sign and the thing signified; whence it comes to pass that the names and effects of the one are attributed to the other.

III. The grace which is exhibited in or by the sacraments, rightly used, is not conferred by any power in them; neither doth the efficacy of a sacrament depend upon the piety or intention of him that doth administer it, but upon the work of the Spirit, and the word of institution, which conatins, together with a precept authorizing the use thereof, a promise of benefit to worthy receivers.

IV. There be only two sacraments ordained by Christ our Lord in the gospels, that is to say, Baptism and the Supper of the Lord: neither or which may be dispensed by any but a minister of the Word, lawfully ordained.

V. The sacraments of the Old Testament, in regard of the spiritual things thereby signified and exhibited, were, for substance, the same with those of the New.


214 posted on 02/28/2008 4:20:49 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose))
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To: Claud

Well said...as you know I’m not Catholic ( I think you know that from other discussions, I shouldn’t assume..anyway), but the continual denial of the significance of infant baptism and blessings bestowed by God thru His sacrament for this by many on here worries me greatly. For full disclosure I attend chruch at a WELS church so I am a very conservative Lutheran and despite what many think we are very close to Catholocism in many many ways...

Blessings.


246 posted on 02/28/2008 9:02:48 PM PST by phatus maximus (John 6:29...Learn it, love it, live it...)
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