Posted on 02/28/2008 6:25:40 AM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
ROMAN CATHOLICISM: A DIFFERENT GOSPEL
In their lust for unity the Emergent Church and post-evangelical “Protestants” are right now embracing the Roman Catholic Church as another Christian denomination. But the issue is simple: If, as taught the Church of Rome, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without “the new birth in baptism” then we are now in hopeless contradiction with the Gospel contained in Holy Scripture.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8)
Speaking The Truth In Love
Let me make this as clear as I possibly can for the Roman Catholics who may read this work in Christ from Apprising Ministries. I personally am former member of the Church of Rome and care very deeply about those, such as the majority of my own family line, who are trapped in this apostate man-made system of religion known as Roman Catholicism. I also fully realize that what I say may sound “unloving” and possibly even “harsh.” However, there is just nothing that I can do about that. By not telling the Truth we aren’t doing anyone a service.
(Excerpt) Read more at apprising.org ...
You have never read a shred of Church history have you? Also please explain the replacement of Judas. Are you saying that the other apostles did not ordain Matthias by the charism given to them by Christ Himself? Explain the offic of Deacon? Did the Apostles overstep their bounds?
Prayers at Mass
Sign of the Cross + Confiteor ("I Confess") + Gloria + Nicene Creed + Our Father
Sign of the Cross [232-237]
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Confiteor
I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.
Gloria
Glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth. Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father, we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory. Lord Jesus Christ, only son of the Father, Lord God, Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us; you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer. For You alone are the Holy One, You alone are the Lord, You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen
Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered died, and was buried. On the third day He rose in fulfillment of the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Our Father [2759-2865]
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. (For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are Yours, now and for ever.) Amen.
Intimate nuthin! I’ll say it flat out: the Church Fathers can be wrong and sometimes are. They do not have the same weight Scripture has. Period.
However, that’s a long way from saying they have no weight whatsoever. Probably the best way to treat them is as follows—if all of the Fathers say X, then you’re on real shaky ground saying Y. If some Fathers say X and some say Y, you might be okay saying either as well. In most cases when Catholics argue about what the Church Fathers say, it is because all of them say X, so it’s real clear what the Church believed.
On the “destroyed documents” hypothesis, I have heard that argument but I think it’s extremely weak. Even things are are lost leave some kind of trace (like Origen quoted Celsus’ book almost in its entirety—if only to refute it).
Also, many of the earliest documents have only come to light in the last century or two. But when they were found, they didn’t really overturn what the Church was saying all along.
We actually know quite a bit about the Ethiopian, Coptic, and Syriac Churches, which have a manuscript tradition of their own, and in many cases preserved documents that were lost in Greece and in the West. Pooling together all these sources, do we find anything that really shakes up our vision of what you are calling “the dominant church”? Not really.
“To that extent, it can be surmised that he would also intend to lump in the Orthodox position, too.”
Oh, at a minimum! If the author really knew about us Orthodox, he’d put put Rome on the good side of the ledger!
My problem is with comments from Latins which evince a pretty thorough going misunderstanding of the The Church which inevitably leads to further attacks not only on Rome but on the other particular churches as well. It may not be triumphalism, but it looks like it and it causes problems.
Oh, Claud, poor Claud. You have fallen victim to the Vast Vatican Conspiracy to white wash all history and remove all record of Catholicism being the Great Whore Of Babylon and Makers of Mayhem Amongst The Nations. All history that told the truth was burnt, destroyed, rewritten in esoteric code by the Jesuit Institution of Surpressing The Glorious Truth Of The True Remnant Of Non Denominational Rapture Believing Churches. How sad that you have fallen victim to these machinations.
So put down that book it is false. The likes of hosepipe and mad dawg know the truth is out there. Umm way out there actually. Now show some respect to your betters.
hee hee
I am admittedly not well read in destroyed and lost sources!
See, we don't always disagree.
Probably the best way to treat them is as follows—if all of the Fathers say X, then you’re on real shaky ground saying Y.
Why, they could be wrong. If they all said the Earth was flat it would not make it right.
On the “destroyed documents” hypothesis, I have heard that argument but I think it’s extremely weak.
How did Marcion come up with his proposed canon?
What exactly were the beliefs of the Paulicians or Cathars?
Agreed. Thanks for pointing that out. Although they believe we originated by schism, if I'm not mistaken.
There is no "requirement" for our salvation other than Jesus Christ on the cross and the resultant gift of faith in Christ which God bestows on His own by the work of the Holy Spirit.
"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36
lol. Yep. God draws His own to Him perfectly and at a time and method of His own choosing from among all races and nations and "clubs."
All churches on earth need to conform to the word of God, and many fail a lot more grievously than others. But no church is perfect. Only Christ is perfect.
Amen!
The question of infant baptism versus adult baptism, is not a salvational issue unless you are EO or RC. As I understand it they believe the act by a priest imparts Grace. However, if they believe this why are they baptizing babies? Babies don't have the capacity to truly believe The Gospel. I think the road to salvation is very clear. First you must believe.
The inconsistency of this would certainly indicate that there is a different GOSPEL being preached and practiced. At least on the surface and none seem able to explain it without first bringing in "the church fathers".
LOL..indeed.
Why, they could be wrong. If they all said the Earth was flat it would not make it right.
Correct. Well, there's a few different ways to argue this. One way is to say look, Christ promised the Church would endure till the end of time. It therefore is repugnant to Christian sensibilities (and contrary to Scripture) that the *entire* Church for hundreds of years be wrong about a theologically crucial issue. So if, for instance, the Church Fathers all say the same thing about Baptism--and especially if they go out of their way to strongly repudiate the other side of the argument--then we can pretty much assume they are speaking with the mind of the Church, and that is the mind of Christ. Because Christ would simply not let His Church stray that far off the reservation.
But if you don't like that argument, there's a method that involves no theology whatsoever. It addresses one of the historical assumptions of the "Great Apostasy", namely that the Catholic Church used to believe X but now it believes Y. Here we're not getting into whether X or Y is right. We're simply trying to figure out if and when X changed into Y.
Here, of course, the Church Fathers are invaluable. Because they present a historical timeline of the development of Church teaching from the sub-Apostolic Age to today. And, in my opinion, a fair reading of them leads to a strong historical conclusion that the Catholic Church *didn't* change her teaching, not in A.D. 1500, not in 300, not in 100. What she believed in 100 is the same thing that she believes now.
Here, we're not using the Fathers as theological proof texts. We are simply citing them as historical evidence of what the Church believed in the disputed centuries. And we simply do not see any kind of seismic shift in doctrine during these centuries, and certainly nothing like certain Reformation assumptions would teach us to expect (lack of hierarchy, liturgy, symbolic Eucharist only).
How did Marcion come up with his proposed canon? What exactly were the beliefs of the Paulicians or Cathars?
Very good questions! I'm not sure of the answer. But we perhaps know enough to say that the beliefs of the Cathars and Paulicians were not the same as the beliefs of, say, modern Baptists. So we are left with a picture of disparate heretical movements rather than one solid and principled opposition party to the Catholic Church.
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? – Acts 11:15-17
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. - Romans 3:21-26
I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. – Revelation 1:18
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. – John 12:27
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. – Philippians 2:8
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. – Isaiah 53:10-12
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. – Hebrews 9:24-28
To God be the glory!
Martin Luther believed in infant baptism. So it is by no means held only by Catholics and Orthodox. Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians all practice infant baptism. Though I must adimt ignorance of Presbyterian grace vs ordinance in their reason for doing so.
But the others all believe that two Sacraments are given to us by Christ as evidenced in Holy Scripture. These are the Lord’s Supper ( though they do not agree with the Catholic Doctrine of Transubstantiation (sp) and the real presence. They do not believe Holy Communion to be only a symbol. The other sacrament is Baptism. Both of these are held to impart real grace. So they do share the teaching that Baptism is for the remission of sins. In the case of infants the sin is original sin. For non infants it would be both original and actual sins which are washed away in Baptism.
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