LOL..indeed.
Why, they could be wrong. If they all said the Earth was flat it would not make it right.
Correct. Well, there's a few different ways to argue this. One way is to say look, Christ promised the Church would endure till the end of time. It therefore is repugnant to Christian sensibilities (and contrary to Scripture) that the *entire* Church for hundreds of years be wrong about a theologically crucial issue. So if, for instance, the Church Fathers all say the same thing about Baptism--and especially if they go out of their way to strongly repudiate the other side of the argument--then we can pretty much assume they are speaking with the mind of the Church, and that is the mind of Christ. Because Christ would simply not let His Church stray that far off the reservation.
But if you don't like that argument, there's a method that involves no theology whatsoever. It addresses one of the historical assumptions of the "Great Apostasy", namely that the Catholic Church used to believe X but now it believes Y. Here we're not getting into whether X or Y is right. We're simply trying to figure out if and when X changed into Y.
Here, of course, the Church Fathers are invaluable. Because they present a historical timeline of the development of Church teaching from the sub-Apostolic Age to today. And, in my opinion, a fair reading of them leads to a strong historical conclusion that the Catholic Church *didn't* change her teaching, not in A.D. 1500, not in 300, not in 100. What she believed in 100 is the same thing that she believes now.
Here, we're not using the Fathers as theological proof texts. We are simply citing them as historical evidence of what the Church believed in the disputed centuries. And we simply do not see any kind of seismic shift in doctrine during these centuries, and certainly nothing like certain Reformation assumptions would teach us to expect (lack of hierarchy, liturgy, symbolic Eucharist only).
How did Marcion come up with his proposed canon? What exactly were the beliefs of the Paulicians or Cathars?
Very good questions! I'm not sure of the answer. But we perhaps know enough to say that the beliefs of the Cathars and Paulicians were not the same as the beliefs of, say, modern Baptists. So we are left with a picture of disparate heretical movements rather than one solid and principled opposition party to the Catholic Church.
C: I'm not sure of the answer. But we perhaps know enough to say that the beliefs of the Cathars and Paulicians were not the same as the beliefs of, say, modern Baptists.
I'm not trying to claim one continuous line of modern Baptists. I'm illustrating that documents/writings that conflicted with the dominant church were destroyed. The result is it is very hard to put together complete pictures of these Christians that were outside of that church.
It is often put forward that the RCC was the only church and what the "church fathers" thought was always the case. It is clear that this is not true. Those that disagreed often had their writings destroyed "to protect the church".
Christ promised the Church would endure till the end of time.
This is really the key point. Is the church a physical institution, or is it the body of believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit? I think the latter, I believe you think the former.
It therefore is repugnant to Christian sensibilities (and contrary to Scripture) that the *entire* Church for hundreds of years be wrong about a theologically crucial issue.
If the church is the body of indwelt believers there is no reason to believe they would all be wrong on a theological issue such as Baptism. The Anabaptists believed in adult baptism after a profession of faith, which is the clear model found in Scripture.
The only way the entire body of the church could end up wrong on a theological issue is if all authority were invested in a man, or group of men. Humans are fallible, even if they claim not to be.
Here’s a short and concise history of the biblical canon that I composed for a class some time ago. It may be helpful in wrapping your head around the “big picture.”:
SCRIPTURAL ROOTS: HISTORY OF THE BIBLICAL CANON
© 2007, Brad Noel
c. BC 1500-50: The books which now make up the “Old Testament” are composed.
c. BC 250-50: Jews in Alexandria translate the Jewish Scriptures into Greek. This translation of the Old Testament, known as the Septuagint, is widely used in Jewish communities throughout the Roman world until c. 100 AD. There is no notion of a strict “canon,” or official list, of books in the Jewish Bible.
c. AD 29: Jesus is crucified, rises from the tomb and ascends into heaven. Christians continue to meet for prayers and to celebrate the earliest form of the Mass, following the Jewish lectionary custom with its set readings for specific days. The readings for these liturgies come from the only “scriptures” they know - the Greek translation of the Old Testament known as the Septuagint. Almost all New Testament references to “scripture” refer not to the entire Bible that we now possess, but to the Jewish Scriptures, our Old Testament.
c. 35: Saul, a pharisee, witnesses the stoning of Stephen, the first Christian martyr.
c. 36: Jesus appears to Saul near Damascus, converting him to the Faith. Saul, now Paul, would go on to compose the majority of the letters that make up the New Testament.
c. 50 - 100: The Gospels, letters and the Apocalypse (i.e. Revelation) that would eventually be canonized as the “New Testament” are written in these years. The first to be composed were likely Paul’s two letters to the Thessalonians (c. 50), and the last were likely John’s three letters (c. 90-100). Mark’s was probably the first gospel to be written (c. 67) and John’s was the last (c. 90). Evidence suggests that all of these books were originally composed in Greek, the lingua franca of the era, though some biblical experts argue that the earliest version of Matthew may have been penned in Aramaic, the language of Jesus. The four gospels were written for different local church centers and can be identified stylistically with certain regions: Mark with Rome, Matthew with Antioch and greater Syria, Luke with the churches Paul founded in present-day Greece and John with Ephesus and the churches of Asia Minor (present-day Turkey). By the end of this period, local churches have begun reading these Gospels and letters alongside the Old Testament readings during their liturgies.
c. 80 - 200: In response to the growing popularity and influence of the Church among both Jews and “God-fearers” (Gentiles who regularly attend synagogue services and profess a monotheistic belief), Jewish leaders begin to cultivate ideas designed to preserve Judaic beilief and Hebrew culture. During this period the Septuagint version of the Hebrew Scriptures which, up to this time had been highly regarded and widely used in synagogues throughout the Mediterranean, came to be rejected by Jewish leaders. A Jewish canon (i.e. an official list of the books that may be read during public liturgies and may be used in lectionaries) began to take shape during this period with a presupposed rejection of Helenic influence. Prayers cursing the minim (pagans, most likely referring to Christians) also begin to appear in synagogue liturgies during this time.
c. 90 - 95: Evidence from some of the writings of the Church Fathers (the generations of Church leaders that immediately followed the apostles) suggests that by this time, Paul’s ten letters had been collected together into a single volume which circulated among many early churches. Also by this time, the four Gospels began to be circulated to other churches outside of their individual regions of origin.
c. 140 - 144: A layman named Marcion founds a popular heretical sect in Rome which disallows the reading of the Old Testament for the belief that the god of the Jews is evil and is a different being from the New Testament god. The Marcionites allow liturgical use of only one Gospel (Luke, edited of any Jewish references) and ten of Paul’s letters. His actions force leaders of the Catholic Church to discuss, for the first time, the establishment of an official canon of Scripture (i.e. a list of books that may be read during the Mass).
c. 170: The so-called “Muratorian canon” is composed at Rome. It lists the books approved to be read in the Catholic Churches within Rome. The Letters of James, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John and Hebrews are not found on this list. However, the Apocalypse of Peter is.
173: A Christian convert named Tatian leaves the Church and joins a Gnostic sect in present-day Syria. He then composes a one-volume synthesis of the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke called the Diatessaron. This text becomes so popular that it is adopted for use during Catholic liturgies in the region, and is practically the only “Gospel” used in Syria during the third and fourth centuries.
c. 180: New Testament books are first translated into Latin and Syriac around this time. By now, twenty-one books of our present New Testament enjoy status as undisputably legitimate for public/liturgical use throughout the Catholic Church. Added to these, some local churches also continued to read from other early Christian writings during their liturgies. The Didache, or Teaching of the Twelve continues to be used in Syria, the Epistle of Barnabas is popular in Alexandria, the Shepherd of Hermas in Carthage, and the Apocalypse of Peter in Rome. In time, these documents would come to be seen as useful and edyfying for the faith, but they failed to gain eventual widespread acceptance as inspired Scripture in the universal Church.
c. 200: Spurred by the rise of heresies such as Marcionism and gnosticism, local churches begin to make official declarations about the documents they read during their liturgies. This new body of Christian literature only gradually imposed its authority on the church. In spite of the practice of publicly reading from the newer documents in services of worship, there is no clear, early evidence that they were considered to be equal in authority to the scriptures of the Old Covenant. If the term “Scripture” could be applied to Paul’s letters (2 Peter 3:16) or later to the Gospels (II Clement, Justin), not until the end of the second century were the expressions “inspired writings,” “Scriptures of the Lord,” and “the Scriptures” used indiscriminately of both the Old Testament and the core of the New. At this time the designation “the New Testament” made its appearance and ultimately displaced all earlier names for the collection of the new books. Henceforth it was no longer a question of the nature of the canon, but only of its extent.
367: Athanasius (d. 373), bishop of Alexandria (Egypt), in his Easter letter of 367, lists the books which he (and his church) recognized as divinely-inspired Scripture. This is the earliest extant list of the books of the New Testament which exactly mirrors today’s New Testament canon number and order.
382: The Council of Rome is called by Pope Damascus (d. 384) who argues that the Church should come to a definite agreement on the canon of Christian Scripture. His appeal is heeded by a number of local councils and synods throughout the Church which produce and publish lists of the books which are read and venerated as Scripture in their respective regions and churches.
393: The Council of Hippo (in North Africa), led by Augustine, lists a canon of New Testament writings which also mirrors our own.
397: The Third Council of Carthage, a regional church council in North Africa, publishes a listing of the “divine Scriptures” which, again, is the same as our present canon (Old and New Testaments). This complete canon was sent by the council to Rome for the approval of Pope Innocent (d. 417). This same canon would later be re-confirmed by the Seventh Ecumenical Council (Nicaea II in 787) and remains, to this day, the canon of Scripture recognized by the Catholic Church as well as the Eastern Orthodox churches.
c. 400: Jerome (d. 420), working on a translation of the Old and New Testaments into Latin, argues that, since the Jews only recognize 39 books in their Old Testament, the Church should only include these books in their canon as well. He wants to exclude seven books (Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach [or “Ecclesiasticus”], and Baruch) from his Latin translation of the Scriptures. Pope Damscus (d. 384) appeals to unbroken and widespread Christian Tradition for the retention of all 46 books in the Old Testament. Jerome includes the disputed books, referring to them as “apocrypha,” or “hidden” books since they are not found in the modern Jewish canon.
1536: Martin Luther (d. 1546), in his German translation of the Bible, removes four New Testament books (namely Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation) from their normally-accepted place. He places them together at the end of his New Testament, according them a status as “less than canonical.” He also moves the seven books mentioned above (the so-called “apocrypha”) to an appendix.