Posted on 02/28/2008 6:25:40 AM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
ROMAN CATHOLICISM: A DIFFERENT GOSPEL
In their lust for unity the Emergent Church and post-evangelical Protestants are right now embracing the Roman Catholic Church as another Christian denomination. But the issue is simple: If, as taught the Church of Rome, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without the new birth in baptism then we are now in hopeless contradiction with the Gospel contained in Holy Scripture.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8)
Speaking The Truth In Love
Let me make this as clear as I possibly can for the Roman Catholics who may read this work in Christ from Apprising Ministries. I personally am former member of the Church of Rome and care very deeply about those, such as the majority of my own family line, who are trapped in this apostate man-made system of religion known as Roman Catholicism. I also fully realize that what I say may sound unloving and possibly even harsh. However, there is just nothing that I can do about that. By not telling the Truth we arent doing anyone a service.
(Excerpt) Read more at apprising.org ...
If one follows Jesus Himself, that’s one thing. If they follow the one true church, they may not always make it. It’s Christ who is our salvation. None other. But you knew that.
Yes, we are born with a sinful nature, but the knowledge of that sin is not in an infant. God doesn’t assign an unbaptized infant to hell just because your church says so. He says to suffer the little children to come unto HIM. That doesn’t sound like he’s ready to throw them into hell to me.
Could you tell me what scripture that is. I don’t remember it. But, he had God’s purpose for Him so that could be true.
We don’t baptize infants but we do have a dedication service where parents and the congregation agree to help raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. We take that very seriously. Later, when they are old enough to receive Christ into their lives, they are immersed in a lake nearby. It’s meaningful to them and to those of us who are there.
I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He has already saved me. I don’t have to wonder and worry if God’s grace has left me because I sinned. I only have to confess my sin to Him and He is faithful to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. God’s looking for relationship, not religious dogma.
Thanks, Godzilla. I appreciate you. Mxxx
PM:Respectfully, I will have to agree to disagree.
Romans 6:1-4 seems to point out this well:
Thanks for taking the time to try and understand the distinction and to make your point.
I think if you look at Acts 10:44-47 and especially Acts 11:15-17 you will see the Holy Spirit descend upon believers prior to baptism and in Acts 15:7-11 that God gave the Holy Spirit because they believed The Gospel not being baptized.
Acts 11:16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall baptize with the Holy Spirit."
Do we believe The Gospel, or do we believe that the sacrifice at Calvary only opened the possibility of salvation and there are a lot of works and practices that must be performed in order to get the Grace of God that saves our souls? If its the latter a sacramental system that imparts Grace makes sense. I don't believe that is what Scripture tells us.
Roms.10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
You have the freedom to believe what you want, even if it’s wrong, Tas. I am not trying to force you to believe anything. That’s YOUR choice.
Great point Dr.E.!
Let me throw the wrench in the works. ;-0
Did the faithful Jews of the old covenant believe their male children were members of God's family and entitled to the covenant promises according to circumcision?
Apparently this is what infant baptism has replaced. As parents our greatest concerns are about our children. It would be natural for us to want to insure their salvation, but the truth is it's not in our hands. It's in God's hands.
Keep shouting it from the mountain tops sister. I'm listening.
silverlings gave it to you here:
Yes, John the baby was filled with the HS.
Luke 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.
At #421
LUB
We do the same. I really don't disagree with the infant baptism if it's being done as a public means of bringing the child into a Christian church and community. I draw the line where it's thought to be imparting saving Grace.
Later, when they are old enough to receive Christ into their lives, they are immersed in a lake nearby.
We have a large baptismal pool and believers are baptized at the start of the service and they offer their personal testimonies. It can be very moving. I think we forget how being baptized early in the church's history marked an individual for possible persecution. It really was an act of Faith and trust in the Lord.
Glad you asked. First of all, we can read the testimony written by the prophets and apostles in the scriptures:
The early Church fathers also affirmed this. For example:
There is plenty more, but the bottom line is that Christ promised it. If His Church is in error on a matter of dogma, then Christ lied. If He lied about that, how can we count on anything to be true?
I think if you look at Acts 10:44-47 and especially Acts 11:15-17 you will see the Holy Spirit descend upon believers prior to baptism and in Acts 15:7-11 that God gave the Holy Spirit because they believed The Gospel not being baptized.
Respectfully...I have not made that distinction nor do I deny the Holy Spirit can descend upon those who confess prior to Baptism. That is not what we are talking about, however. We are discussing infant baptism. Do you deny the Holy Spirit can descend upon those baptized prior to confessing their belief? If so, I dare say that perspective quite limits the authority and power of the Holy Spirit and I for one will not go there.
Blessings.
Am Considering whether I want to get into that much detail..
When so many base concepts are overlooked.. (un-developed)
You know, by us, together..
Respectfully.
Whether we have knowledge of that sin or not is not relevant. If we are sinful, we are sinful, period. We don’t have to be conscious of our sin to have committed it, do you agree? If an infant is not “sinful” at what point do they become sinful...1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8? By that theory we make ourselves sinful at some point by becoming “aware” of our sin which I dare say sounds quite like an eastern orient religion type thought. Read Paul and then tell me what his perspective is on our sinful nature. He’s quite clear and it’s not pretty for us.
Secondly. I NEVER said that God throws an unbaptized infant into hell (because my church says so - which is so far from the truth - FYI I’m not RCC by the way which I assume you think I am). We have no doctrine on the souls of the unbaptized infants because we do not know, it is God’s will what happens with the unbaptized infant (and frankly all souls). I pray that God’s mercy will be given to all unbaptized infants, but since I don’t have a pipeline to God’s mind I can’t say one way or the other - Can you?
No. I think any public profession of Faith, or act such as baptism, is done after a completed act.
We are discussing infant baptism.
The difference here is the individual being baptized is making no decision to do so, or any pronouncement of Faith. In addition it is being claimed that the actual act is imparting Grace. In the adult application the Holy Spirit has already indwelt the believer and the believer has a desire to be baptized and no claim of Grace being imparted by the act is made.
It really goes back to do you believe that believing The Gospel is sufficient for salvation, or is something more required? IOW an ordinance versus a sacrament.
It really goes back to do you believe that believing The Gospel is sufficient for salvation, or is something more required? IOW an ordinance versus a sacrament.
Bear in mind The Gospel instructs us to be baptized and I for one will not deny my child this when s/he is born. I see we are at an impass and with that I will bid you all well. It is clear we do not agree nor will we and since the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a new result I’m going to heed to that definition and move on so I keep my sanity, at least for one more day ;-).
Blessings to you all in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
PM
But you read it, and still don’t understand his issues with the core doctrines of Rome, and why he tries to point Roman Catholics to Christ and the Gospel? That’s what you said: you can’t for the life of you understand why someone would do what he does. You don’t think he answers that question?
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