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To: pby

an excerpt from the afore mentioned article in relation to RECENT discoveries that seem to butress Joseph’s case:

“In Facsimile 2 are four mummy-like figures known—to Egyptologists—as the Sons of Horus. Their images were also on the canopic jars (the jars that stored the internal organs of the deceased) that we see under the lion couch scene in Facsimile 1. Joseph revealed that these four figures represented “this earth in its four quarters.” According to modern Egyptologists, Joseph Smith is correct. The Sons of Horus “were the gods of the four quarters of the earth and later came to be regarded as presiding over the four cardinal points.”19

Years ago, Dr. Nibley pointed out that the critics generally focus on the Egyptian vignettes in the Book of Abraham and the papyri but neglect the much richer Abrahamic traditions found in the Ancient Near East. This is really where Joseph shines. Recent studies into ancient Abrahamic lore and Jewish traditions preserved in ancient texts, show some surprising parallels to what we find in the text of the Book of Abraham. Some of these parallels are very convincing and imply that Joseph (who likely could not have had access to many of these traditions) actually restored authentic ancient Abrahamic lore. Some of these parallels include early Jewish traditions about Abraham’s life—details not found in the Bible.20 Two such ancient documents that show some surprising parallels to our Book of Abraham are the Apocalypse of Abraham21 and the Testament of Abraham22 (the Apocalypse of Abraham dates to about the same time as the Book of Abraham papyri).

Other interesting parallels include ancient names, for example, that would have been unknown to Joseph Smith. These names are accurately represented in the Book of Abraham both phonetically as well as in meaning.23 Those of you who attended last year’s conference would have heard John Tvedtnes speak on this. He pointed out that many of the names were authentic.

Another interesting parallel is ancient astronomy. In Joseph Smith’s day “heliocentricity” (as proposed by Copernicus and Newton) was the accepted astronomical view. Nineteenth-century people (including the most brilliant minds of the day) believed that everything revolved around the Sun—therefore the term “heliocentric” (Greek helios=sun + centered). (In the twentieth-first century we generally accept an Einsteinian view of the cosmos.) The Book of Abraham, however, clearly delineates a geocentric view of the universe—or a belief that the Earth (Greek geo) stood at the center of the universe, and all things moved around our planet.

According to ancient geocentric cosmologies and what we read in the Book of Abraham, the heavens (which is defined as the expanse above the earth—no celestial object is mentioned to exist below the earth) was composed of multiple layers or tiers—each tier higher than the previous. Therefore the Sun is in a higher tier than the moon, and the stars are in higher tiers still (compare Abraham 3:5, 9, 17).24 According to geocentric astronomy, celestial objects have longer time spans (or lengths of “reckoning”) based upon their relative distance from the earth. “Thus, the length of reckoning of a planet is based on its revolution [time to orbit around the center, in this case the earth](and not rotation [time to spin on its axis, as the earth does every 24 hours]).”25 The higher the celestial object, the greater its length of reckoning (compare Abraham 3:5). Likewise, in Abraham 3:8-9, we read that “there shall be another planet whose reckoning of time shall be longer still; And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob.”

Ancient geocentric astronomers believed that the stars were “the outer-most celestial sphere, furthest from the earth and nearest to God.”26 We find in the Book of Abraham that the star Kolob was the star nearest “the throne of God” (Abraham 3:9). In the ancient, yet recently discovered, Apocalypse of Abraham (which dates from about the same time period as the Joseph Smith papyri but wasn’t discovered until after Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham), we find that God’s throne is said to reside in the eighth firmament (the firmaments, being another term for the varying tiers in the heavens above the Earth).27

The Book of Abraham also reveals that those celestial objects that are highest above the earth, “govern” the objects below them (see Abraham 3:3, 9 and Facsimile 2, fig. 5). This sounds similar to the beliefs of those who accepted an ancient geocentric cosmology:

Throughout the ancient world the governing role of celestial bodies was conceived in similar terms. God sits on his throne in the highest heaven giving commands, which are passed down by angels through the various regions of heaven, with each region governing or commanding the regions beneath it.28

We find this governing order described in the Apocalypse of Abraham and other ancient sources. All of this makes sense only from an ancient geocentric perspective (such as that believed in Abraham’s day) and makes no sense from a heliocentric perspective (which is what Joseph would have known in his day and everybody else around him believed).

A different interesting parallel comes from Facsimile 1 (Abraham on the lion couch). According to Egyptologists, this is a typical Egyptian embalming scene and has nothing to do with Abraham or sacrifice. In fact, the critics assure us, Abraham is not a topic of discussion in Egyptian papyri, and there is no connection with Abraham and the embalming lion couch.

Recent discoveries, however, suggests that the Biblical Abraham does appear in some Egyptian papyri that date to the same period as the Joseph Smith papyri. In one instance Abraham’s name appears to have a connection to an Egyptian lion couch scene.29

The stories and worldviews we find in the translated text of our Book of Abraham coincide nicely with what we find from ancient Abrahamic lore.

In Facsimile 2 the hypocephalus—and I just inserted this a few minutes before the conference started—we read that in some ancient text that Abraham is referred to as the pupil (or iris) of the of the wedjat-eye.30 This is a graphic of it here in Facsimile 2. And what’s interesting about that is that the wedjat-eye also refers to hypocephalus—to this type of graphic—and the god of the hypocephalus would have been the pupil (or iris) of the wedjat-eye. Well some of the text refers to Abraham being that pupil of the wedjat-eye so we see an obvious relationship that some saw from Abraham to hypocephali.

The other thing is that Christians in Egypt would have referred to the underworld as “the bosom of Abraham.”31 Well the hypocephalus was placed under the head basically to keep the body warm during the long night until the morning of the resurrection and also it enveloped them with the divine power of the god of the hypocephalus—well the (inaudible) Christians referred to the underworld as “the bosom of Abraham” so we see again a connection there with Jewish and Christian thought and the Book of Abraham as Joseph Smith translated it and in ancient thought on this.

Recent discoveries basically seem to bear out that Joseph Smith not as wrong the critics claim and in many instances is correct. In fact in instances that are pretty hard to guess how he would have come up with some of these interesting parallels”.

The question is, how would Joseph Smith have known these things that were not known at the time? Was he just lucky?


1,739 posted on 03/01/2008 2:05:11 PM PST by Reno232
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To: Reno232; pby
The spiritual adviser to your peepstone divination ‘prophet’ knows much more than you or I, but even his knowledge is limited. Had Joe or his spiritual director know that the universe started 15 billion years ago with a bang that brought into being space, time, and matter, perhaps his fantasy of the infamous little couplet claiming God evolved to His position of godhood would have been fabricated differently.

While Joe Smith was a fraud claiming to be a prophet of God, his spiritual mentor is anything but a fantasy. His real manipulations of men like Smith eventually gets outed though, like with pernicious adultery and fraudulent claims of ‘translating abilities’.

1,748 posted on 03/01/2008 2:20:04 PM PST by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: Reno232
In regard to facsinmile 1:

In Joseph's interpretation of Facsimile No. 1, the bird was the "Angel of the Lord". Joseph said the Facsimile depicted "Abraham fastened upon an altar," being offered up as a sacrifice by a false priest of Elkenah. The figures under the altar were various gods: Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, and Pharaoh. This is referenced in both the Facsimile and the text of the Book of Abraham 1:12-14.

In reality, this is an embalming scene showing Osiris lying on a lion-couch. The actual translation of Facsimile No. 1 is:

"Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons -- and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified -- after his arms have been placed on his heart and the Breathing permit (which [Isis] made and has writing on its inside and outside) has been wrapped in royal linen and placed under his left arm near his heart; the rest of the mummy-bandages should be wrapped over it. The man for whom this book was copied will breathe forever and ever as the bas of the gods do." (Klaus Baer, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1968, pp. 119-20)

I am looking up the claims that Joseph Smith was right on the four jars...but doesn't Scripture require a prophet to be right 100% of the time?

What are we to conclude, if an alleged prophet is not right 100% of the time, as noted above?

1,750 posted on 03/01/2008 2:24:33 PM PST by pby
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To: Reno232
The question is, how would Joseph Smith have known these things that were not known at the time? Was he just lucky?

Hello!!

DEMONS know these things!

They fed that stuff to him; just like the first vision.

1,789 posted on 03/01/2008 3:40:26 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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