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Locked on 03/03/2008 9:42:54 AM PST by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior |
Posted on 02/22/2008 9:11:12 AM PST by Zakeet
They're called the "Lost Boys," the teenagers kicked out of their homes and communities by leaders of the polygamist Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to ensure there's an ample supply of single, young women who will one day become plural wives. Representative Lorie Fowlke (R-Orem), is running a bill to make this abandonment a felony.
"Estimates are that we've had more than 1,000 children - primarily in southern Utah - thrown out of their homes," Fowlke says. "What we were trying to do with this bill is criminalize this behavior and send a message to this community that they can't just throw away their children."
H.B. 23 adds child abandonment to the definition of child abuse, and makes it a felony crime. It also adds an enhancement if a parent or organization benefits from the child's abandonment to further an illegal enterprise, such as polygamy. This is the case with the FLDS church, says Roger Hoole, a lawyer who represents some of the displaced young men and sits on the board for the Utah Association for Justice. He says the church benefits from kicking out young men who would compete for plural wives. This, he says, has devastating consequences.
"There's a huge impact that's coming, like a tsunami, that's going to hit the state of Utah, when these boys get a little older and realize what has happened to them and get angry," Hoole says. "There's a real problem here."
Fowlke's bill gained unanimous support in a Senate committee this morning, and now heads to the full Senate for consideration.
The person themselves has self impose condemnation upon themselves by the decision or action they mindfully choose to do.
Hmmmmm...sounds very much like what takes place in calling another "natural man". Not a term I would chose to use. Perhaps others would think twice about doing so.
What gives someone the authority to “discern” others in a “natural man” state? And HOW is that NOT judging them?
In the context that term has been used, it has looked very judgemental.
***
The Lord gives each of us ability to discern this for our own protection.
Why is it some of us can choose McCain among the three that we might have a chance to hold on to this constitution?
When I post unkind gift to you with out humor you can discern that is not good.
When some take a serious topic and mocks or ridicules it in a nasty way to discredit that is being in a natural man state.
As I stated before their are degrees like a 25, 15, 10 watt bulb.
OH! Now I remember! Thanks for the explanation....I guess I’ll have to break out the DVD and watch it again, LOL.
I been so busy I just caught LOL
How the term applies to Mormonism: HERE.
THE CURRENT TEACHING OF THE MORMON CHURCH:
"The living are thus authorized, under prescribed conditions, to act for the dead, and the fathers in the spirit world look to the children in the flesh to perform for them the works which they were unable to attend to while in the body...Knowledge that is needful concerning the spiritual sphere will come through an appointed channel and in the appointed place. The temple where the ordinances can be administered for the dead, is the place to hear from the dead." MORMON DOCTRINE, 1888, pgs.40,41 Charles W. PenroseThe above, however, contradicts what is plain in the Scriptures, that God forbids witchcraft, divination, necromancy, and the like:
WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ABOUT DIVINATION: (ATTEMPT TO FORETELL THE UNKNOWN BY OCCULT MEANS) 1. CONSIDERED AS A SYSTEM OF: Fraud Eze 13:6, 7 Lucrative employment Act 16:16 Abomination Deu 18:11, 12 Punishable by death Lev 20:6, 27 2. PRACTICED BY: Astrologers Isa 47:13 Charmers Deu 18:11 Consulters Deu 18:11 Diviners Deu 18:14 False Prophets Jer 14:14 Magicians Gen 41:8 Necromancers Deu 18:11 Soothsayers Isa 2:6 Sorcerers Act 13:6, 8 Witches Exd 22:18 Wizards Deu 18:11 3. (see link) 4. (see link)
When I googled the Rev. Arnold Murray and found out that he was a leader in the racist Christian Identity movement it surprised me to find his views being promoted on FR and even on this thread.
But I don’t really know the ins and outs of the religious forums.
All different churches use different methods to promote ‘healings’....I dont know what the Mormon church does in particular....I believe that the Catholic faith has some ritual that it uses, I have heard it called, an ‘Annointing of the sick’, tho I am not sure if that is the correct phrasing of it or not...someone will surely tell me, if I am incorrect...
All Christian churches, as far as I know, call for prayers for the sick....often a church minister will have a list of those folks in his church who are ill, and before the general prayer, will mention those people, and ask that all in the congregation pray for a healing for those sick people, calling them by name...
But the folks I was talking about, was the faith healers onstage, with large audiences, and they will claim to perform miraculous healings right on stage...I have seen folks knocked over, and always the minister claimed, they were slain in the spirit...when I was told of Ernest Angely and his shock belt, it only confirmed in my mind, that trickery was probably involved in people being knocked out on stage...it was not the Lord doing it, it was some mechanical device, designed for such purposes...
I remember when my son was in the hospital, and was in an intermediate ICU....a soldier had come in, who had been in an auto accident...he was pretty busted up, lots of broken bones, and bruises and injuries, and tho seriously wounded, he would be ok...he was in the intermediate ICU so that they could just keep an eye on him, for a while...
My son was in the intermediate ICU, having just spent 5 weeks in the actual ICU, and was well enough to leave, tho not yet well enough to go back to pediatrics...so they put him in an isolation room in the intermediate ICU...
Now, this soldier in the accident, was visited by his wife and family, and minister and a number of folks from his church...they surrounded his bed, and conducted some sort of a healing ritual, which actually became somewhat disruptive to the other patients and families in that unit...we could not hear much of what was going on, because we were in an isolation room, in which all leukemic children undergoing treatment are put...so I could only hear a little of the disruption that was going on...
I left my sons isolation room, as the nurses were doing some treatment on him, so I went into the intermediate ICU waiting room...soon a few of this wounded soldiers visitors, the minister and some of the church people also came into the waiting room...they were apparently angered that they had been asked to leave the soldiers bedside, as the nurses told them they were disruptive...I could get this from their conversation, spoken loud enough for everyone in the waiting room to hear them...
They asked me, if I had a loved in the intermediate ICU, what was wrong with him, and could they gain access to his room, via my permission, so that they could ‘heal’ him...they claimed that their healing ritual was healing the wounded soldier, and they would do the same for my son...
Now my son was having a painful treatment performed, he had had a rough day, he had been through quite a bit that day, and he had had visits from all the clergy, and church folks, that he himself requested...many churches in our area had him on their prayer lists, as well as churches back in the area we had just moved from...
So when I politely just told these people in the ICU waiting room, that I did not want them in my sons room, they were indeed very disappointed, and a few of them were angry with me, for denying them access to my son...I suppose they meant well, but they way they tried to convince me granting them access, assuring me, that they could ‘heal’ my son, was a bit much...having been told to leave the general intermediate ICU, because they were disruptive, only seemed to make them all the more anxious to gain access to other patients in the isolation rooms...
The soldier remained in the intermediate ICU for a couple of days, until he was moved onto another floor...the church members showed up each day, but were always denied access to the soldiers bedside, actually at the soldiers request....he shouted it loud enough, for all to hear, that they were bothering him, and not allowing him to sleep, or rest...
So all different churches and all different ministers and all different members of various churches go about their attempts at ‘healing’ in different ways...
Yes, this is very true....
The person themselves has self impose condemnation upon themselves by the decision or action they mindfully choose to do.
And do you consider judging others as "natural man" acting "in the light of God" and under the "influence of the Lord"?
Well, It was enlightening to see just what was meant when the term "natural man" was used. As I said before, it's not a term I would chose.
What an awful experience for you and your son.
No discerning is not judging it is to be aware.
Do you think to rend ones word or to turn words against another is a godly thing?
Do you think mocking and ridiculing is someone who is walking with the Lord?
If someone pokes you in the eye on purpose you know it did not come from a place of reverence.
“I would venture to guess that I might know more than you do about the LDS Church. Maybe, maybe not.”
I couldn’t take it anymore last night. I have no doubt you know more about Mormons - from your perspective - than I. I was baptized 8 yrs ago so I am fairly new - one of those who came into the Church since President Gordon B. Hinckley became the Prophet. The Church grew by one-third under President Hinckley and I am happy to be among that group. There have been many loving changes. I love my Savior and I love my Church.
I was raised a Southern Baptist; tried being a Catholic; tried being a Pentecostal. I was with Youth With A Mission (YWAM)for about 5 yrs. Lived in Belize (Central America) for 18 months with YWAM. Got discouraged by all the contradictions and hypocrisy.
AUTHORITY - that was the missing ingredient. I know in my knower that The LDS Church is the True Church. The other Christian Churches all have some of the Truth. Great! I am happy for all Believers who put their trust in the Atoning Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is no respecter of persons. We are all his children.
I just do not understand why some posters are seemingly obsessed with trying to put down my beliefs and my Church.
Yes, some have said, that Arnold Murray, is a leader in the racist Christian Identity movement...in the question and answer period of his show, when someone asks him about him promoting racist views, he always denies it, and other than that, I have no knowledge if he is an actual leader, in any racist movement groups, other than what some folks have said about this...
What I think has happened, is that when Murray says that all races of men were created on the 6th day of creation, some claim that means, that those people created on the 6th day, are somehow inferior, to the ‘Adam’, and the ‘Eve’ created on the 8th day...from there comes the belief by some who wish it to be so, that the ‘Adam’ and the ‘Eve’ were white, it was from them, that Christ came, therefore they are superior to those created on the 6th day...
Murray has denied this, and has stated that it is completely stupid, to believe that one race is superior to another race...these are not my views, I am only repeating what Murray has said, and what others have said about his teachings......
I dont know that Murrays supposedly ‘racist’ views are being promoted here on this thread, or on FR in general...I dont actually know how many of those who follow and believe in Murrys teachings believe this racist talk, there will always be those who will take whatever someone says, and apply it to their own inclinations....when people talk about Murrays beliefs, here on FR, they talk more about his beliefs, concerning the age of the earth, the age of man, the three ages of the earth, is there a fiery tormenting eternal hell, and oh, yes, the assertion, that Judas did not commit suicide, but rather was murdered and then strung up...as I said, Murray has many beliefs, that are outside of mainstream Christian thought...
Is Murray, a leader in the racist Christian Identity movement?....you will have to answer that for yourself...it has been asserted, tho I dont know if there is any proof for this assertion...should you find concrete proof of this, I would be interested in seeing it...myself, I would not make this claim, unless I had the evidence to back up that claim...I really have no idea if Murray is a racist or not...I also have no idea, if he has any connections to the Christian Identity movement or not...
The Authority is CHRIST! Not some flesh and blood so-called "living prophet".
Did you submit to the AUTHORITY of Christ when you were a Baptist or a Catholic?
Got discouraged by all the contradictions and hypocrisy.
That is what we have been pointing out about the LDS Church. Hypocrisy and contradictions. That is the earmark of the Mormon Church.
It may not be the earmark of most the LDS Members, but it is the earmark of the LDS Church. They teach one thing and then they change their minds and try to pretend they never taught it. They have never said they were WRONG about anything. Polygamy was never "Wrong" it just is no longer taught. Discrimination against blacks was never "Wrong", God just changed his mind.
I have never seen a Church more filled with contradictions and hypocrisy than the Utah LDS Church. I am not talking about your typical Mormon, I am talking about the LDS Church as an institution.
I can only pray that you one day see the light and return home to either the Catholic or Baptist Church or find some other Bible Based Church which believes in the Jesus of the Bible, not the Jesus of the Pearl of Great Price.
If you are looking for AUTHORITY in the Church, that is Christ and Christ alone. If you are looking for authority in the arm of flesh, you are looking for trouble.
Reading the hearts and minds of others is NOT discernment, much as one would wish it to be.
I think that one should consider the beam in one's own eye before perceiving the mote in a brother FReeper's eye, and to me that "beam" includes "discerning" someone else's "sin" and pronouncing judgement upon it by way of naming someone "natural man". Matthew 7:3
Especially given the definitions you posted of what a "natural man" is.
OK, thanks for the info. Back to our regular programming.
Saundra,
P-Marlowe, greyfoxx39 and I were Mormon. We are all now saved by the Grace of God alone - we left behind the belief that works of ordinances could offer us Celestial Glory.
Do you not wonder why we left Mormonism for the pure unadulterated Love of God. Do you really think we are “haters,” and not just normal, sinful people who sometimes get caught up in emotion, but who love God and want to share our experiences with those who may lurk on these threads.
I hold no animosity toward you, or resty, or Utah Girl, or Spiff. I’ve said before - There are a great many Mormon people whom I love and admire. I am convinced Saundra, that you DO know the true pure love and Grace that Jesus Christ offers you. Please, please, please don’t ever let it go!
My prayers are offered for each and every one of us.
Isn't that what happened when the baptists let the pentecostal rewire the baptistry LOL
That was because you had sent me that unsolicitored PM earlier in the evening and I had deleted it without reading it...
I felt that it would just be of the same vein as ypour posts to me in the thread..
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